Bluegill Fly Rodders

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Comment by Tony Livingston on March 5, 2015 at 11:16am

Man...good discussion!!

Comment by Tony Livingston on March 5, 2015 at 11:14am

I don't know about Asian carp, but I have it on good authority that redear sunfish will absolutely plot an angler's demise.....

Comment by Leo Nguyen on March 5, 2015 at 11:12am

Indeed Andy. They're no invasive by means of moving from Asia to US. Rather, idiots believe the carps are beneficial somewhere along the way (environmental), like the snakeheads (health and aquacultural), and dump them into the water. When optimal conditions are presented, let the fun begins.

Comment by Andy is OptiMystic on March 5, 2015 at 11:08am

Why move to the colder climates when beneficial returns are minimum in the short (3 years) to medium run (10 years). What do they see and sense that we can't comprehend at the time being?

Most invasive species didn't proactively invade; they are released by idiots or accident. Sometimes they are purposefully introduced. But I don't think the Asian carp plotted an invasion of the Mississippi watershed.

Comment by B. Waldman on March 5, 2015 at 10:55am

Andy - Failed spawns are a pretty common thing in nature, and from the studies I've read, fish don't have to lay their eggs even if they are fully mature and ready to. There appear to be some inherent biases or guards against a fish doing something (spawning) that will likely fail for whatever reason, including temperature fluctuations, predatory pressures, etc. In those cases, the eggs stay with the female and get reabsorbed. Using bass as an example, in optimal temp conditions, eggs will develop in roughly 2 days. Once you drop down to about 55 degrees or just under, this extends out to about 10 days. Much colder than that, and complete failure is likely, and most bass won't even attempt to spawn, though there is likely localized genetic disposition to some extent in the matter. If you've ever seen bluegill beds go completely abandoned after a severe cold front moves in, you've experienced this. Can't say for certain how frequently or to what degree this actually happens though.

Leo - great stuff. Do keep us informed of your progress. Would be fun to tell friends "I knew him when" we used to hang out at bigbluegill.com and discuss fishing stuff, some time after you get your Nobel prize when the profound finally happens :)

Comment by Leo Nguyen on March 5, 2015 at 10:53am

Okay..I'm falling in love with all you guys. I can't refrain from switching mindset while sitting in this boring meeting of mine. Excellent questions and key points on the answers.

I'd agree with David and say 'yes'. My reasoning would be that the eggs (oocytes) of most fish actually start developing in late fall and winter (declining water temps/photoperiod?). Hormone levels also start changing, but I think this post winter feeding spree you mention is at least somewhat tied to the fact that the fish has to keep energy reserves up and keep the eggs maturing. The largest, most fittest (healthiest) fish are usually the ones in the best position to dominate the spawn. When viewed in that context, it's not much of a stretch to consider this period part of the "pre-spawn," though maybe not quite in the way some people traditionally define it.

Splendid point! I barely finished my last typing, and saw your posting. Sheesh. Talking about taking the subject and sending up fireworks to highlight it. We're so stuck on studying primary sport/beneficial fishes that we forgot to intensively study the "invasive species" like Asian carps, or the snakeheads. Regardless of the regional photo-period and temperature, they will readapt, mature, and reproduce year round. When the conditions are not favorable, rather than wasting energy in waiting for food sources to come about, the adults eat each other and their youngs, and continually with their maturation and spawning regiment. Photo-period and temperature suddenly went out the door. So, what triggered the spawning? Survival? Adaptation? Why not concentrate in the lower tropical to subtropical regions and dominate? Why move to the colder climates when beneficial returns are minimum in the short (3 years) to medium run (10 years). What do they see and sense that we can't comprehend at the time being?

Comment by Tony Livingston on March 5, 2015 at 10:47am

Fish do not have to lay their eggs....they can reabsorb them if necessary, but unsure if that still holds true past a certain gamete maturity.

Comment by Tony Livingston on March 5, 2015 at 10:46am

Leo, you're not a true pondmeister until you've killed a few hundred fish!

Comment by Leo Nguyen on March 5, 2015 at 10:30am

This is few of the best collective mindset in a hive that I can be blessed with. Andy, no ill-respect taken. No need to apologize. I rather have everyone bluntly shell out info so I can learn things myself. When I stop learning, it means I'm fish foods.

I come from a subtropical country (Vietnam), and I've always been exposed to both agricultural and aquaculture farming practices since I was born. Of course, back then, I couldn't understand the practices and methodology involved. Everyone here is dead on about photo-periods and temperature. The regional's influence for growth, maturation, and reproduction stimuli is based on the regional climatical changes, including hormonal introduction to trick the body to grow/mature at an unnatural level. That can also be said for us humans since we're maturing quite early due to high level of hormones in our foods, water, and air. There's a correlation between optimal growth, maturation, and reproduction with rise and optimal constant temperature. That's a given. Without proper photo-period, there's not enough UV spectrum influence, there won't be enough production food sources along the food chain, and anatomical reproduction of key compounds for survival. Temperature (in cold regions) aid the survival of the youngs, and the gestation period during spawning. Temperature is all about survival of the youngs, while photo-periods is all about the opportunistic and availability of foods sources. This is certainly is true for cold climates.

As B.W. indicated, for tropical and subtropical regions, foods sources remain constantly abundant, and of course, minimal influx (with some odd outlier climate changes) of temperature and photo-period, which still maintain an all year round optimal maturation/spawning cycle window. So, why not spawn year round? Like the rare "fall spawning" for subtropical in bass, same thing can be said in plants, taking plants in nature, and exposing them to the same constant photo-periods and abundant nutrients (controlled indoor, with hydroponic/amended soils). The outcome, growth and maturation occur, but the kicker is, crop yield is missing. We manipulate plant's production to genetic manipulation, as well as inducing hormones, forcing the plants to produce against their natural cycles.

This is why I'm excited, yet, cautiously approaching into this arena. Currently, I'm in contact with a few funded universities, locally and globally, that ventured into this unique arena, especially for the aquaculture exist in nature without man-made manipulation (especially hormones and chemical inducing). I'm guilty to say that I did manipulated my family's goldfish aquarium in the past following this theoretical planetary global seasonal shift using high powered magnets (shhhhh..don't tell them since I killed the fishes through total confusion). Now, I'm testing the theories on plants at a smaller scale..even smaller than the aquarium. It has only been a year. No profound discovery yet. I hope to produce some concrete evident to provide. If not, my kids will carry on my torch later in life as their side project as they are involved in my studies.

Comment by Andy is OptiMystic on March 5, 2015 at 10:24am

that egg development is the cycle I was referring to in an earlier comment:

 But it leads to a hypothesis on my part. I would guess that if the temperature doesn't get warm enough, the beginning of the decline after the peak photo period would likely trigger the spawn if the physical limits of having started the cycle haven't already forced their fins.

At some point those eggs are likely matured to the point the fish will lay them regardless of water temp. That is my educated guess, not something I know.

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