using a leader???

[cal okeefe]

i hear some people say they use leaders.. why would you use a leader for panfish.. just curious ..

[David, aka, "McScruff"]

Yes. That is the point. See Johnny's response above.

As for me, I dont put quite as much thought in to is as some of the others do. I just do it. Again, mostly because I've been doing it for about 45 years. I can tell you this much: I don't feel I lose pan fish because of it.

I do leave a few hooks in the tree branches, though.

[Mark Stine]

I like the sensitivity of braided line.  My buddy and I did some testing side by side in the boat with and without the flourocarbon leader using light weight (not ultralight) spinning gear and found that 18-20" leader in general doubles the amount of fish caught.  We were using live bait consisting of worms and minnows for this experiment.  We repeated it during several trips with similar results.  These were done from a boat on stained but not muddy waters.

 I am still not really satisfied with using braids on my ultralight rigs and generally opt for the four pound stren on those, when casting tiny lures (I generally have six to ten different rigs in the boat three of which are fly rods).

[Tony Livingston]

Mark, thanks for your input. Do you think the reason more fish were caught using a leader was due to the braid's higher visibility in the water, as Bill suggested? Were you deadsticking the live bait, or casting/trolling? I can see where deadsticking would give the fish plenty of time to inspect and/or reject your offering, like Johnny suggested.

What issues did you have with the braid on your ultralights?

 

 

[Mark Stine]

I think the braid's higher visibility in the water was the cause, we were deadsticking, mostly anchored up with a few slow drifts that would still allow plenty of time for a close inspection.

I tried some lighter like six pound braid on the ultralight.  I liked the feel of it, very easy to detect a bump against a log or stick versus a bite much more than mono.  However, the braid kinked up and constantly seemed to throw a loop, you know one of those where the cast just went wrong and you get the glob of line out there somewhere with a big loopy knot.  With mono you can usually get the knot out and still use the line even though it might get a little kink but the braid was so limp the knots got really tight and  I had to cut the line.  I am a nut about trying to keep the spool filled to within about an eighth inch of the lip for optimum casting distance.  So hackin off twenty feet of line a couple of times every trip really put me out!  The braid was ultra thin and frequently got caught on the screws of the bail, the line keeper and some logo thing on the side of the spool.  Wish the reel manufacturers would think smooth instead of pretty. 

I might experiment with a different brand of braid see if they can overcome these short coming. 

Anyone know of an ultralight spinning reel with a larger diameter arbor?

[Johnny wilkins]

I am glad we split this into two categories - dead-sticking and float fishing with a leader because i was starting to get confused. Great way to keep working the point without getting frustrated. I know when I see something that doesn't make sense - the tendency is to just get frustrated and dispute it. I see information on discussions that drives me batty.  I have to do my best to keep it cool right and I can't pass on any information if people think I am a complete doof.  Thank you for sticking with it as well.

I would say this also - the majority of slip floats are just o.k. in 10 - 15' of water and deeper. There are good slip floats available that will work better than those foam chunks most people associate with the slip "bobber" - by the way - a "bobber" is something that sits up on the waves and just taunts the angler - you want something that goes under when the fish takes the bait - you don't want it to bob. Floats slide under the water and let the angler know when to strike.  No matter what the slip float system is - as you add more line and depth- having the setup perfect and a smaller float is essential. As I said above - most of the slip bobbers are just too big for bluegill fishing. We can change that. 

Do know that the secret to slip-floating deeper water is taking the time to sink your float with the appropriate stack of split shot. You should have one large stack of split shot to get your line to depth but then you should have one tiny shot that you set about 2 feet below the stack. This dropper falls slowly but it also will allow you to see two actions on your float. The first is when the float sets up and the stack lands at depth. The second is when that small shot reaches depth you should see your float tip slowly sink down into its final "trigger position". If you can see the second shot fall into place and a very little part of that float is above water - you have a propper slip float ready. You should see every little take and ejection from a gill!  So - that said, I know why many anglers in deeper water turn to other techniques. It takes some time and effort to get your float rig right and also- you must MUST anchor with a properly setup float. Some drift around with a lot of float hanging above the water - but this tactic only gets the aggressive fish and leaves behind many fish they could have had. I also say - double anchor so that you don't get boat swing.

I have to add the above because without the above - the leader will never come into play. If you are moving around and your boat is swinging all over - you are only going to get ultra-aggressive fish - if any at all. If you have a lot of boat movement you might as well fish a braid because the fish are chasing your offerings. If you are fishing a lure - they have to chase the lure anyhow and again - you are then getting the aggressive fish. I float fish because I want to catch fish when they are moderately aggressive and even when they are passive. I want negative fish and those that wouldn't feed. I want a shot at 90% of the fish rather than just 10% of the aggressive fish. The leader allows me a crack at the fish that might not feed but must be coaxed.

The leader is the essential part of the rig along with the hook and excellent, healthy, properly hooked live bait. The leader has to be thin, invisible and stealthy - not stiff, not thick. The leader's function on a float rig is to allow the angler enough time where the bluegill holds the bait - enough time to set the hook. Speed is not as essential as timing. 

Here is the key to bluegill fishing no angler on the planet can strike faster than a bluegill can eject the bait. Using their feeding capabilities they are able to eject the bait with a reverse blast of air faster than you can complete a blink. By the time your brain fires a thought down to your arms, wrists and hands to "set the hook" - that bait has been ejected.

The leader being thicker - there are two parts to the equation that help the bluegill eject a bait. Because the thicker line flexes slower than thinner line - the bait on the thicker line will not enter the bluegill's mouth as far in as a thin-leadered offering. When the fish hits the eject mode, the thick-lined leader will not have as far out of the mouth to travel before the hook point is completely out. This results in setting our hook into air. The essential part of a leader - is timing.

Because of the speed of this fish in ejecting the bait- many anglers fish a tight line and try to beat them to the punch or "feel" the fish. If this is how the angler learns how to catch and has success catching - it is very hard to convince them to try something else. Fishing is being comfortable and we do things more that we have had success catching - we use those "go-to" tactics and tend to get slotted in our fishing. We do the same things.

This is my Christmas present to all. The next time you pick your leader line of the shelf - don't look at the pretty boxes. Take the spool out of the box, feel that line and read the line diameter. Be more scientific this next fishing season. Last night I took a couple of spools out of the box and tried to look for a good leader line in the ice fishing section. EEEEEeeeeeew - after looking at those line diameters - even on the Berkley 2 lb. I have to say - pathetic bluegill line.

I am going to the workbench and will be fixing this situation as the snow falls up here. I will also be returning to the store to get you some measurements, weights and facts. Together we will look at this equation and as some know - real Revolution will take place. It's time.

Great discussion!