Where are the MONSTERS?

[Shannon H. Dye]

Has there been any 4 pounders reported lately?

[Shannon H. Dye]

Ok... so new plan.
1: Drain the pond
2: Dig it deeper and fix the overgrown banks, shallow swamp and dam.
3: Build new pier for me and the kids.
4: Install feeders ( I plan on fixing my feeders centralized on posts in the pond the prevent the coons from raiding it. If they want it they'll have to swim.
5: Spread ag lime (suggested rate 4.5 tons / acre) over the entire bottom and let it fill.
6: Test the water and if all good, add fish.

Don't think I'm not writing this down guys...

So what's next?

[Leo Nguyen]

I'm merely a shmoe in a world of geniuses Carl. Working with various agencies covering the environmental and biological fields, I tend to see things a slightly different perspective in the natural states. This is why I'm interested in the isolated environment of ponds and small lakes. Everything work with has always been 20 acres minimum. 10 acres is considered as outliers for me. Anything smaller, I have to revert back to my aquarium days. This is why I'm fascinated with pond owners and their abilities to balance nature and man intervening enginuity.  I'm working with consultants and developers to design and promote ideas of sustainability, aesthetic, and biological observational programs for all ages, in all fields. It's a challenge in a state with very little water to offer, but, utilizing conservation technique, it's doable. This is why Bruce, Bob, Tony, Walt, Dick, and so many others are contributing massive amount of info for me to utilize for such endeavor. Wish I have more personal time to travel for such knowledge collection first-hand.

[Shannon H. Dye]

Carl, I was thinking... seriously contemplating... draining the pond to start fresh but "Dang" I hate to lose what's in there. The bass are to small to eat but as stated earlier, I don't know their age. The red ears in there are big enough to eat so that's not a problem.
Also, I have read that a pond aimed for big bulls should have no structure or cover... as was the case of Ketona Lake up the road from me where Coke McKenzie and T.S. Hudson got their records. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong). I was under the impression a pond for gills should be deep, with a minimum depth of 4 feet to eliminate bedding and reproduction as much as possible, no cover and a high bass population.
Legit question here: If my coppernose have no where to bed = produce no offspring, should I stock fatheads for the bass since they will have nothing to eat?
Also, you hit the proverbial nail right smack on the head... Being able to stand on the end of my pier holding a 4 to 5 pound coppernose that I grew from a "bitty", would be just like watching my kids walk across that stage and collect that diploma... "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED".

[carl hendrix]

been reading this post; with great admiration and respect for you to try to raise; trophy class blue gills.  as you said;  you may not be able to enter one of your pond raised blue gills; into the record books;; but;; isnt there another consideration??  personnel satisfaction !!!  when; you did everything correct; and raised that one- true trophy blue gill; irregardless of regulations of the record books;; there would have to be a certain amount of;; personnel satisfaction; that you acomplished it !!  Tony is a very intelligent  blue gill grower; i guess that is what you might call him;; and personally I have the greatest respect for his knowledge; and work in trying to do;; exactally what you are  wanting to do  Shannon.   ( altho I sometimes love to kid him a little;; saying he uses miracle grow on his pet blue gills)  knowing that you;; bought your place with pond already built;; and wanting to try to grow ; true trophy blue gills;; would it not be wise;; to drain your pond;; take a very good look; at exactly what you have once its been drained??  then adjust it; to your specs. add  structure;;  make some irregular dips in the bottom;; etc. point is;; to make it what you want it to be to your likeing;; take photos of the drained pond site do your structure work;; more photos;; so its a before and after effect.  then by refilling the pond with good water and starting from ground zero.   Leo;; is another fantastic source of information;; ( also one of my greatest buddies here)  with degrees in bio med; chemistry so forth;;  definitly worth  his suggestions to consider also.  good luck on your pond !!

[Shannon H. Dye]

Tony: Thanks for the explanation of the Hybrid... I honestly thought they were engineered but now that you say that it makes more sense why so many biologists, fisheries owners, pond managers and hatcheries say "Keep the Green Sunfish Out".
My wildlife Biologist friend also told me... - "Under no circumstances should you stock hybrid bluegill in a pond managed for trophy coppernose. Hybrid Bluegills are a result of fish farmers trying to maximize for profit which in turn has caused the collapse of numerous pond and lake ecosystems. If you catch Greens or Hybrids in your pond at a rate of 1 to every 8 or less coppers, drain and kill the pond immediately."
Would you guys agree? I only ask because as I stated in my first comment when I joined Big Bluegill... "Please forgive my ignorance".

[Shannon H. Dye]

I see there are fish hatcheries everywhere... many who say they can produce the best strain of fish.
I have read of a place in Texas claiming they are producing 2 lb gills in less than 2 years. I have read of another producing 18" and 19" gills in 4 years which really doesn't matter unless it weighs over 4 lbs 14 oz. to be considered a record. it's much like the middle aged man I think as stated before. With age comes girth and mass; as with me... lol. But length as in height stops or slows to near nothing am I right?
So who has the best starter stock?

[Tony Livingston]

Fish, certainly those in private ponds and lakes, are not in the same class as deer and bear. Those animals are free to move about and forage, eating all manner of stuff. It's similar to the fenced in deer debate...is that deer still eligible for trophy status when it lived it's whole life on your property, behind a fence? Same thing with fish in private ponds, being fed daily rather than subsisting just on forage.

I think a coppernose would be given equal billing where record status is concerned, since they are essentially the same fish as a northern strain. HBG are usually not included, although some states do not differentiate there either, lumping them in with the bluegill category. And they aren't really a man-made creation, having existed and still occurring naturally in waters everywhere.

[Tony Livingston]

Slip says:

i agree with you Tony... but if the record is broken... i believe it will be in a western impoundment.

And I would agree that western waters hold an advantage, overall. A quick look at bluegill records for all 50 states shows that out of all the 3 lb+ bluegills listed, none were caught thus far this decade, and only two occurred during the previous decade. California and Arizona.

[Leo Nguyen]

Tony nailed quite a bit the species factor into consideration. Playing at Bruce Condello's and other lakes' and ponds' caretaker, getting them to grow fast within a short window of their maturity cycle is one thing, maintaining and pushing them to surpass their natural growth rate, yet, balancing with health and vitality is another as they reach their adulthood and beyond.

However, as Tony indicated, aberration is one thing from the established norm. However, there are also environmental adaptation, triggering the genetic mutation during the adaptation, the so called "evolutionary ladder", will be responsible for the larger sized communities. Havasu is that example. Diamond Valley Lake is another. We have yet to officially survey Lake Matthew. Why? Because unofficial reports from Lake Matthew will blow all national, and possible world, records out of the water. Rumors..rumors..rumors..

That waterbody is the end-point of various waterbodies, enriched with extreme high load of everything, massive waterbody both in depth and in size, as well as pristine drinking water standard exceeding US EPA and CA state standards by far. So, yes..rumors have it, records will be decimated since there has not been, or rather, rarely, any fishing pressure.

That's the end of my info. Any more, I will have to kill you.

[Shannon H. Dye]

Well noted Tony... I wonder why they would consider fed fish non-recordable in the record books when every other animal that is hunted can be fed? Deer, Bear and so on...
I was thinking about draining my pond and starting over fresh since the bass I currently have would eliminate any 1" to 2" fish I stocked. Perhaps adding the 6" gills and reducing the bass population would give me that chance for producing my own fry and feeding them out from the get go. I know paying the $90+ for those 70% protein feeds and $50+ for those 50% protein feeds really hurt my feelings when the reality of never producing a record sets in.
Obviously, I can't shoot for a state record here in Alabama. Seems Mr. Hudson set the bar way to high for that.
Also, would a coppernose (L. macrochirus purpurescens) of 5 lbs be considered a world record to beat out Mr. Hudson's record or would it have to be a native blue (L. macrochirus)? If someone caught a Hand Painted Bluegill (L. macrochirus ssp) of 4 lbs 14 oz would it beat out Mr. Hudson's record or would it be in a different category. All are considered bluegill, just sub species?
Of course the Hybrid Bluegill, in my personal opinion should never be considered simply because it was a man made creation back in the late 70's.