To add a little to what David said, even when fish are surface feeding they will rarely turn down something just below the surface and dark and buggy seems to be a strong preference. When they are feeding below the surface, dark and buggy still seems to be a strong preference. The most boring looking nymph in my box catches a bunch when they are actively feeding.
90% of the stuff we do beyond that is to try to increase their activity when they aren't all that active, IMO. At the other extreme, when they get really active and competitive, they hit almost anything that moves and many things that don't. In another month or two we will all be geniuses because almost everything we have will work.
I think the conversations will soon start to shift to where to fish (deep versus shallow, in the slop, reading current, etc) with mostly the usual suspects as the chosen fly.
Thanks so much for all the good tips and info. I think I need to tie more sub-surface flies now. Carl, I'm going to check out your page too. We have snow here in Eastern Okla. so I might as well enjoy some fly tying for a few more weeks.
3 out of the 4 biggest gills i have caught last few seasons,all over 9 have been caught on top in late summer in pretty shallow water.large terrestrials are abundant and the fish take advantage.they were all in shady areas with heavy foliage on the shore.these were all huge compared to the average fish in their BOW.
i have also noticed a spring pattern on a large deep lake i visit every april.bigger gills will school in open water in the middle of the lake away from structure.i think they are following wind blown hatches and are of a size where predators are not that much of a problem.also crappies take over the shorline cover as they are somewhere in their spawning cycle,maybe pushing the gills out for a bit.people slow troll and pick up gills at random.if you can stay on a school dozens can be caught in a short time
Big fish go where the food is. So do small ones.
I noticed you mentioned the presence of an obvious food source and cover to shelter the fish. There is always something, the reason they are there.
I almost always start by fishing structure/cover with top water bugs.
And I've found on my lake that rip-rap seems to have some magic. As long as rocks are piled out into the water there are always fish.
But unless there is an exceptional reason, like a bloom of bugs, overhanging branches with bugs, or something like that - the top water bite slows to the unwary dinks by midmorning.
Here again, there are larger fish nearby. But they don't hit the top as much unless something special is going on. I know they are near, because I'll catch them on subsurface flies.
This season, I'm going to go with Carls constant suggestion to tie a dropper. I'll count on the popper/surface bug to make a racket. If a fish takes it, fine. But I'll bet on the dropper to get most of the attention.
in open water i agree with the popper dropper.i have 2 fly rods when i am shore stalking .thats the only way to describe it.i look for places if i was the fish i would be hunting and try to exploit that.water i fish is pretty clear so i do quite a bit of sight fishing also.if the cover is rocks or submerged brush and trees and i see no activity i throw some thing heavy and compact like a tung bead fly.if i see fish or signs of feeding i drop a popper or spider on em.if it gets rushed by dinks i move on.i rarely see bigger fish with smaller fish ecept the spawn.
That's another good point worth repeating:
Bluegill school according to size/age.
When you're catching nuttin but dinks, move out to the first four foot depth break near cover - and honk that popper dropper rig at em!
Or drag a Briminator around the lower column.
i find a lot of the larger ones outside the cover.depending on the the predator population at a certain size they dont have too much to worry about.many times on shallow flats just inside the shade line
a simple tie marty,i also tie these on 1/100 jigs.these have a similar weight but in a smaller package due to the tungsten bead.i usually tie these brown but want to give this a shot
There has been a lot of good discussion here....I believe that a fly fisher should carry a couple of good patterns in various sizes and possibly 2 or three colors in 1.floating 2shallow or slow sinkers 3 fast sinkers or bottom bouncers. For the latter bead chain is probably heavy enough because IMHO if bead chain is not heavy enough to get it down then one is better off using UL spinning. When flies get much heavier than bead chain and small lead eyes they are no fun to cast on the lighter rods that most of us use for sunfish. Just a word of caution--- if you go to using heavier flies you might want to think about using glass fly rods in stead of the delicate graphite rod. One miss cast where the lead hits the rod during the cast and ruin graphite rods. Glass will be much more tolerant of such violations.
At what water temprature do Gills prefer and at what temperature do they start getting active. I'm guessing after a few 70 degree days I might find a few active in small ponds.
This is my first year in a long time to have a float tube. With waders on, how warm do you like it before getting in the water. I know in wading trout streams 45 degree water temps are tolorable.
bill after ice out when you start seeing bugs flying ,that is my cue.where i live i hit the north shore of water as the sun angle warms them first,trees and rocks also radiate heat into the water.shallow flats with dark bottoms warm faster.if you have a warm south wind blowing warmer surface water to said north shore even better.they eat under ice so once the ice is gone look for warmest water possible .the fish will
Thanks Jim. I live near Tulsa. Most people miss spawns here because they wait too long./ The Sand Bass are already running up some of the rivers. I'm so eager to get out there I don't think I'm going to be late.
What Jim said.
Here in South Carolina we traditionally go by the dogwoods blooming.
But Jim's insect yardstick is a bit more region specific.
As far as water temps go:
Mid 50's - bluegill begin moving into the area Jim mentions. These are transnational forays, meaning they come and go with the sun warming of water.
Mid 60's - nest building under way and the males are in the shallows. Females will be at first depth break from the nesting areas going back and forth to shallows to feed and make their presence known.
Into the low 70's - nesting well underway and even nearing an end. Males still around nesting sites, females back to the depth break.
I have a gift for over simplification (or is it simply fiction?); here is one...
Hours of sunlight seems to trigger the pre-spawn activity and water temperature seems to trigger the actual spawn. Lots of caveats on both statements but it means they start getting active about the same time in the same places but when they actually bed varies more.
Actually Andy, neither photo-period nor water temp triggers it. It's actually have to do more with maturation cycle and global seasonal shift (animals are extremely sensitive to this, except human) no matter how slight. Photo period and water temp flux constantly, which don't dictate the fishes from spawning.
However, it may not rule out the fact that you somehow inherit this unique ability to detect global seasonal shifting, as well as maturation cycle detection.
Good call on the daylight hours Andy....photoperiod plays a BIG role in the spawn. Tidbit: female BG's will respond to an increased photoperiod earlier than the males, as they will begin feeding to assist egg development.
I am also trying to figure out what Leo means because I think of "global seasonal shift" being something that you can plot to a specific "photo period" value. the simplest two examples being that Winter technically begins at the shortest period and Summer technically begins at the longest.
The hours of daylight are going to vary by species and location (plus it really throws them for a loop when they have to set their clocks forward next weekend ;^> ) but around here it will be very slightly under 12 hours, or near the global seasonal shift known as Verne's Equal Nocks...
LOL! I'll break it down a bit more. For avid anglers and seasons' masters, they all correlate the change of photo-periods and water temperature shifts to the spawning habits of the species. Now, let's dig deeper into the world of science, since I'm a freak of nature (an an environmental scientist with the love for fishing, hunting, and survival).
Inland areas, where there is a great temperature shifts from extreme cold (freezing winter) to extreme hot (summer time), we can definitely say that exposure to longer photo-period and rising temperature trigger spawning effects. If you live near the coastal areas, especially near the tropical regions, we can't say the fishes move from saltwater to fresh/brackish water to spawn because of photo-period and temperature shifts. Let me elaborate that much more, using wider spectrum of animals so I can hopefully paint a larger picture.
Migration animals, such as birds, detect the faintest of global shifts. The global shifts may be an indicator for seasonal shift, or even worldwide catastrophic event. The animals will act in accordance. With that in mind, take the fishes in Alaska and as far down as Florida, photo-period is long during spawning season(s). Why are they spawning during these long photo-period, yet, the temperature shift remain constant (with small windows of temperature flux) throughout most of the year? Why are trout and salmon react strangely, and go into spawning mode either early in winter or late in summer, yet, their normally spawning periods are late winter/early spring? Same thing with sunfishes. Oddly enough, they're spawning either a few months early, as often as they can, or even late in the season when we deem spawning is considered as not optimal.
1. They detected something that cause them to react differently. It's not the changing of the season. Rather, the scientific community understood it's because climate/global shifts onset that the animals detected way before we, as human, can.
2. Availability of resources for that early/late spawning period. Photo-periods plays a critical role in production of resources, but there are hidden resources that we have not seen. These creatures can detect the available resources for the early/late reproductive cycles, as well as maturation cycles.
3. We're detecting another phenomenon in the studies correlating the animals to their behavioral cycles in the recent decades. UV spectrum influences. It was a theory back in 1950s, but put into full practices between 1990 to the current day. UV lamps for plants and animals. UV spectrum intensity due to polar shifts of the earth produce an opportunity for early/late start, based on the regions. This was found true in both plants and animals.
Okay..I think I'm going a bit too far into the scientific world. Forgive me.
northern fish are more used to drastic changes ie cold fronts and cold snaps after the first warm days.the full moon is also a good indicator.when we had a very warm spring a few years ago there were fish on the beds in late april.it had been in the 80s in march.last year we had the coldest winter on record.very few gills spawned even in may.we had a snowstorm in april and a hard frost in may,their usual time.i was catching fish on beds in august last summer.a first for me.i have no problem fishing beds as i release them all anyway
Leo - I'm trying to get a better grasp of what you are referring to from your explanation below, but coming up short. Could you possibly reference a paper or study that might better explain what you are talking about? A search for "global seasonal shift" comes up with little, so perhaps there is a different terminology? From most of the literature I've read on spawning in subtropical climates (Mozambique, Puerto Rico, etc.), photoperiod and water temp still play an important role to a degree, but spawning tends to be protracted, in some cases extending to a period covering half the year. Are you referring to other external environmental forces? For example, some bass in these climates seem to use seasonal heavy rain events (water level changes) as a key trigger for spawning, but again, only during a certain period of the year (photoperiod and/or water temp.). While in equatorial saltwater, corals key their reproductive efforts to full moon phases at the beginning and ending periods of the monsoon season. Might that be an example of what you are talking about?
Sure. Here are some blurbs, and I'll search for published documents later. I drowned the published articles in a 16TB storage somewhere, including their publication links and notes.
I'll check the references by universities on the global nodes for the photo-periods vs climatological shifts due to planetary shifts as I pull the info up from my storage units. But in the meantime:
Spawning is affected more than just photo-periods, or climatal temperature shifts. Yes, these two play their roles, but these roles are a part of a greater picture that we only recently become more aware of. There are more to the spawning trigger than meets-the-eyes. I'm still trying to study more on the subject since I'm extremely interesting in pushing the envelop for optimal genetic growth potential for fishes and plants, creating a diversify aquatic-terra agricultural practices without destroy the ecosystems (a dream in the making).
Would it be fair to say these theories are in their infancy and not yet widely known or universally accepted?
There is a lake near me where the largest average creels for bass in 2015 will probably occur in the next 2-3 weeks because they have pretty much every year whether we get 40s or 80s in mid March. But when they bed has varied much more widely. I think the photo period (hours of daylight) is what triggers this because I don't think they have calendars.They start packing it on whether it is cold or hot but don't start the spawn until the water warms up.
Thanks, Leo. These are sufficient for now. I was able to track down a few others to read based off your links to get an idea of what you are talking about.
So are you saying these forces have overall "spawning (reproductive cycle) affects," or are you more targeting them as "spawning (cycle) triggers?" After reading more, my first impression is that localized conditions would still continue to be the dominant "force/trigger" in any given year (in determining bluegill spawning), but variations of/over time might play out more according to these global forces.
Andy, like all other universal theories which became logical and widely accepted facts in practices, based on hundred and thousand years old assumptions, these actually have logic background scientific basis. I was quite pessimistic at first, but allowed logical digging of scientific studies to reinforce the sounded arguments.
B.W., yes, these forces do have an overall influences on spawning and maturing cycles, not only in fishes, but also in plants. Aquatic creatures, those who dwell near the surfaces, under photo-period influences near photo-dependent plants, exhibit similar triggers for maturation to spawning/reproduction.
Localized regional conditions do contribute to the maturation and reproduction/spawning cycles. But what truly forces the fishes to react to an early/late maturation/spawning cycles? It's now no longer the regional conditional influences. It goes up even higher.
B.W., great to have a scientific mind to discuss with. To the rest, sorry if we went a bit overboard.
Leo, I am pretty aware of the scientific method, I was raised by a veterinary pathologist (avian diseases specialist) and a PhD research microbiologist working for CDC, so I heard all sorts of competingzoological theories at the dinner table. I started down the science path myself originally majoring in chemistry and even working as a lab tech for a while (real exciting stuff; certifying nutrition labels on livestock feed). Anyway, I have a lot of exposure to scientific minds socially, academically and professionally.
I meant no disrespect in questioning where this theory stands in the scientific community. Some theories, like gravity, are widely accepted and you won't be taken seriously by most if you discuss alternatives. This theory doesn't seem to be as well known or accepted.
I do have some skepticism about it, mostly due to the dependency on animals sensing changes in climate. They have shown remarkable abilities at seeming to predict weather and seismic events that will occur in the near future, but most of what I have read on sensing climate has been negative or inconclusive. The other fly in that ointment is that I (and most of the scientific community) believe that the climate is currently being affected by forces other than nature.
I still think it has been pretty well documented that activity will start at about the same date in the same locations from year to year but spawning will vary more widely and seems to be largely driven by temperature. It sounds like what you are looking into is a possibly explanation for minor variances within that than something completely different.
I've shared this topic through my Facebook group, The Palmetto Fly.
I've trimmed out the esoteric elements, since they're not for everyone.
But that's how it goes. I just thank you all for your drive and input.
Thanks for the link, Tony. The second to last paragraph pretty much sums up what I have come to believe through personal experience and reading articles like his. Daylight hours seem to get them in the mood and temperature seems to affect when they actually do the deed...
we are (hopefully) pretty much assured of the sunrise and sunset times and therefore the photo period. The temperature is the independent variable in this equation. the tropics where neither changes much is interesting though. I think that is where the climate may play in more. Rainy seasons and what not.
but in cool years don't they start spawning at some point even if the temp doesn't make it to the optimal range?
I'm not so sure. If the correct water temps were not important, I would expect to see year round spawning in my ponds, even when the water dropped into the forties. But it doesn't happen.
If there is both a spring as well as a fall equinox, then it would seem to reason that there would also be two different time periods wherein the photoperiod approached optimum for spawning....but I don't see that happening. I think the difference is the declining water temps during the fall.
Good comments and discussion, all. Like most of you, I still finger photoperiod and water temperature manipulation as the key triggers to spawning. The literature is replete with studies of off-season spawning and rearing of fish for a variety of reasons, and in nearly all cases, controlling photoperiod and temperature regimes are largely the key to accomplishing this. Outside that, the use of hormone injections (human chorionic gonadotropin - "hCG") is the only other factor frequently mentioned. That said, in keeping with being good "scientists" or researchers, we must always be open and willing to look at and discuss alternative or competing theories and weigh their merits, hence my interest in what Leo is presenting.
I also am interested in what Leo presents. His in-depth knowledge and understanding of the intricacies involved in spawning behaviors will be instrumental in helping a layperson such as myself, try and comprehend the interaction between the various factors in play.
Yes - water temp trend is a big key from everything I've read. While a certain temp is a good guideline for starting, it is the stable and increasing water temps that seem to really generate the impetus to spawn. This has been documented in several studies. Declination of photoperiod and water temps serve their own purposes, but appear to be non-starters as to actual spawning. Outside of a Florida report or two for crappie and bass (subtropical again), it seems pretty rare to actually find " fall spawning" in most of our freshwater fishes throughout the country, trouts excepted.
I am interested in other theories also. Leo's first comments gave me the impression that there was a new theory that mos biologists are on board with. Probably my bad (usually is)...
Tony - in the fall, it is decreasing photo periods that pass the mark. I think that is very different. But it leads to a hypothesis on my part. I would guess that if the temperature doesn't get warm enough, the beginning of the decline after the peak photo period would likely trigger the spawn if the physical limits of having started the cycle haven't already forced their fins.
David, aka, "McScruff"
Feb 27, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
To add a little to what David said, even when fish are surface feeding they will rarely turn down something just below the surface and dark and buggy seems to be a strong preference. When they are feeding below the surface, dark and buggy still seems to be a strong preference. The most boring looking nymph in my box catches a bunch when they are actively feeding.
90% of the stuff we do beyond that is to try to increase their activity when they aren't all that active, IMO. At the other extreme, when they get really active and competitive, they hit almost anything that moves and many things that don't. In another month or two we will all be geniuses because almost everything we have will work.
I think the conversations will soon start to shift to where to fish (deep versus shallow, in the slop, reading current, etc) with mostly the usual suspects as the chosen fly.
Feb 28, 2015
Bill Dungan
Thanks so much for all the good tips and info. I think I need to tie more sub-surface flies now. Carl, I'm going to check out your page too. We have snow here in Eastern Okla. so I might as well enjoy some fly tying for a few more weeks.
Feb 28, 2015
jim cosgrove
3 out of the 4 biggest gills i have caught last few seasons,all over 9 have been caught on top in late summer in pretty shallow water.large terrestrials are abundant and the fish take advantage.they were all in shady areas with heavy foliage on the shore.these were all huge compared to the average fish in their BOW.
Feb 28, 2015
jim cosgrove
i have also noticed a spring pattern on a large deep lake i visit every april.bigger gills will school in open water in the middle of the lake away from structure.i think they are following wind blown hatches and are of a size where predators are not that much of a problem.also crappies take over the shorline cover as they are somewhere in their spawning cycle,maybe pushing the gills out for a bit.people slow troll and pick up gills at random.if you can stay on a school dozens can be caught in a short time
Feb 28, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
I noticed you mentioned the presence of an obvious food source and cover to shelter the fish. There is always something, the reason they are there.
Feb 28, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
And I've found on my lake that rip-rap seems to have some magic. As long as rocks are piled out into the water there are always fish.
But unless there is an exceptional reason, like a bloom of bugs, overhanging branches with bugs, or something like that - the top water bite slows to the unwary dinks by midmorning.
Here again, there are larger fish nearby. But they don't hit the top as much unless something special is going on. I know they are near, because I'll catch them on subsurface flies.
This season, I'm going to go with Carls constant suggestion to tie a dropper. I'll count on the popper/surface bug to make a racket. If a fish takes it, fine. But I'll bet on the dropper to get most of the attention.
Feb 28, 2015
jim cosgrove
in open water i agree with the popper dropper.i have 2 fly rods when i am shore stalking .thats the only way to describe it.i look for places if i was the fish i would be hunting and try to exploit that.water i fish is pretty clear so i do quite a bit of sight fishing also.if the cover is rocks or submerged brush and trees and i see no activity i throw some thing heavy and compact like a tung bead fly.if i see fish or signs of feeding i drop a popper or spider on em.if it gets rushed by dinks i move on.i rarely see bigger fish with smaller fish ecept the spawn.
Feb 28, 2015
jim cosgrove
Feb 28, 2015
jim cosgrove
speaking of rip rap i cant wait to try this little rock hopper.sz 14 60 degree wipe gap and 3mm tung bead
Feb 28, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Bluegill school according to size/age.
When you're catching nuttin but dinks, move out to the first four foot depth break near cover - and honk that popper dropper rig at em!
Or drag a Briminator around the lower column.
Feb 28, 2015
jim cosgrove
i find a lot of the larger ones outside the cover.depending on the the predator population at a certain size they dont have too much to worry about.many times on shallow flats just inside the shade line
Feb 28, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Feb 28, 2015
Marty Lemons
awesome looking fly Jim, you need to make them available to us
Feb 28, 2015
jim cosgrove
a simple tie marty,i also tie these on 1/100 jigs.these have a similar weight but in a smaller package due to the tungsten bead.i usually tie these brown but want to give this a shot
Feb 28, 2015
Ray Ditzenberger
There has been a lot of good discussion here....I believe that a fly fisher should carry a couple of good patterns in various sizes and possibly 2 or three colors in 1.floating 2shallow or slow sinkers 3 fast sinkers or bottom bouncers. For the latter bead chain is probably heavy enough because IMHO if bead chain is not heavy enough to get it down then one is better off using UL spinning. When flies get much heavier than bead chain and small lead eyes they are no fun to cast on the lighter rods that most of us use for sunfish. Just a word of caution--- if you go to using heavier flies you might want to think about using glass fly rods in stead of the delicate graphite rod. One miss cast where the lead hits the rod during the cast and ruin graphite rods. Glass will be much more tolerant of such violations.
Feb 28, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Feb 28, 2015
Bill Dungan
At what water temprature do Gills prefer and at what temperature do they start getting active. I'm guessing after a few 70 degree days I might find a few active in small ponds.
This is my first year in a long time to have a float tube. With waders on, how warm do you like it before getting in the water. I know in wading trout streams 45 degree water temps are tolorable.
Mar 4, 2015
jim cosgrove
bill after ice out when you start seeing bugs flying ,that is my cue.where i live i hit the north shore of water as the sun angle warms them first,trees and rocks also radiate heat into the water.shallow flats with dark bottoms warm faster.if you have a warm south wind blowing warmer surface water to said north shore even better.they eat under ice so once the ice is gone look for warmest water possible .the fish will
Mar 4, 2015
Bill Dungan
Thanks Jim. I live near Tulsa. Most people miss spawns here because they wait too long./ The Sand Bass are already running up some of the rivers. I'm so eager to get out there I don't think I'm going to be late.
Mar 4, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Here in South Carolina we traditionally go by the dogwoods blooming.
But Jim's insect yardstick is a bit more region specific.
As far as water temps go:
Mid 50's - bluegill begin moving into the area Jim mentions. These are transnational forays, meaning they come and go with the sun warming of water.
Mid 60's - nest building under way and the males are in the shallows. Females will be at first depth break from the nesting areas going back and forth to shallows to feed and make their presence known.
Into the low 70's - nesting well underway and even nearing an end. Males still around nesting sites, females back to the depth break.
Mar 4, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
But I should be able to time the tail-end.
Mar 4, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
I have a gift for over simplification (or is it simply fiction?); here is one...
Hours of sunlight seems to trigger the pre-spawn activity and water temperature seems to trigger the actual spawn. Lots of caveats on both statements but it means they start getting active about the same time in the same places but when they actually bed varies more.
Mar 4, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Actually Andy, neither photo-period nor water temp triggers it. It's actually have to do more with maturation cycle and global seasonal shift (animals are extremely sensitive to this, except human) no matter how slight. Photo period and water temp flux constantly, which don't dictate the fishes from spawning.
However, it may not rule out the fact that you somehow inherit this unique ability to detect global seasonal shifting, as well as maturation cycle detection.
Mar 4, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Talk about simple, though - "when you start seeing flying bugs, start fishing!"
Can't get simpler than that, I don't think.
Unless you go with the dogwoods... And I'm looking...
Mar 4, 2015
Tony Livingston
Good call on the daylight hours Andy....photoperiod plays a BIG role in the spawn. Tidbit: female BG's will respond to an increased photoperiod earlier than the males, as they will begin feeding to assist egg development.
Mar 4, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Besides I'm still trying to figure out what Leo just said...
Mar 4, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
I am also trying to figure out what Leo means because I think of "global seasonal shift" being something that you can plot to a specific "photo period" value. the simplest two examples being that Winter technically begins at the shortest period and Summer technically begins at the longest.
The hours of daylight are going to vary by species and location (plus it really throws them for a loop when they have to set their clocks forward next weekend ;^> ) but around here it will be very slightly under 12 hours, or near the global seasonal shift known as Verne's Equal Nocks...
Mar 4, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Bugs and dogwoods, Bugs and dogwoods....
Mar 4, 2015
Leo Nguyen
LOL! I'll break it down a bit more. For avid anglers and seasons' masters, they all correlate the change of photo-periods and water temperature shifts to the spawning habits of the species. Now, let's dig deeper into the world of science, since I'm a freak of nature (an an environmental scientist with the love for fishing, hunting, and survival).
Inland areas, where there is a great temperature shifts from extreme cold (freezing winter) to extreme hot (summer time), we can definitely say that exposure to longer photo-period and rising temperature trigger spawning effects. If you live near the coastal areas, especially near the tropical regions, we can't say the fishes move from saltwater to fresh/brackish water to spawn because of photo-period and temperature shifts. Let me elaborate that much more, using wider spectrum of animals so I can hopefully paint a larger picture.
Migration animals, such as birds, detect the faintest of global shifts. The global shifts may be an indicator for seasonal shift, or even worldwide catastrophic event. The animals will act in accordance. With that in mind, take the fishes in Alaska and as far down as Florida, photo-period is long during spawning season(s). Why are they spawning during these long photo-period, yet, the temperature shift remain constant (with small windows of temperature flux) throughout most of the year? Why are trout and salmon react strangely, and go into spawning mode either early in winter or late in summer, yet, their normally spawning periods are late winter/early spring? Same thing with sunfishes. Oddly enough, they're spawning either a few months early, as often as they can, or even late in the season when we deem spawning is considered as not optimal.
1. They detected something that cause them to react differently. It's not the changing of the season. Rather, the scientific community understood it's because climate/global shifts onset that the animals detected way before we, as human, can.
2. Availability of resources for that early/late spawning period. Photo-periods plays a critical role in production of resources, but there are hidden resources that we have not seen. These creatures can detect the available resources for the early/late reproductive cycles, as well as maturation cycles.
3. We're detecting another phenomenon in the studies correlating the animals to their behavioral cycles in the recent decades. UV spectrum influences. It was a theory back in 1950s, but put into full practices between 1990 to the current day. UV lamps for plants and animals. UV spectrum intensity due to polar shifts of the earth produce an opportunity for early/late start, based on the regions. This was found true in both plants and animals.
Okay..I think I'm going a bit too far into the scientific world. Forgive me.
Mar 4, 2015
jim cosgrove
northern fish are more used to drastic changes ie cold fronts and cold snaps after the first warm days.the full moon is also a good indicator.when we had a very warm spring a few years ago there were fish on the beds in late april.it had been in the 80s in march.last year we had the coldest winter on record.very few gills spawned even in may.we had a snowstorm in april and a hard frost in may,their usual time.i was catching fish on beds in august last summer.a first for me.i have no problem fishing beds as i release them all anyway
Mar 4, 2015
carl hendrix
the best time to go fishing is whenever you CAN!!!
Mar 4, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Amen!
Mar 4, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Mar 4, 2015
B. Waldman
Leo - I'm trying to get a better grasp of what you are referring to from your explanation below, but coming up short. Could you possibly reference a paper or study that might better explain what you are talking about? A search for "global seasonal shift" comes up with little, so perhaps there is a different terminology? From most of the literature I've read on spawning in subtropical climates (Mozambique, Puerto Rico, etc.), photoperiod and water temp still play an important role to a degree, but spawning tends to be protracted, in some cases extending to a period covering half the year. Are you referring to other external environmental forces? For example, some bass in these climates seem to use seasonal heavy rain events (water level changes) as a key trigger for spawning, but again, only during a certain period of the year (photoperiod and/or water temp.). While in equatorial saltwater, corals key their reproductive efforts to full moon phases at the beginning and ending periods of the monsoon season. Might that be an example of what you are talking about?
Mar 4, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Sure. Here are some blurbs, and I'll search for published documents later. I drowned the published articles in a 16TB storage somewhere, including their publication links and notes.
Planetary shift and fishery blurb
Planetary effects on animals (short blubs)
Planetary shifts (biotic state vs conditions) on multispecies and n...
I'll check the references by universities on the global nodes for the photo-periods vs climatological shifts due to planetary shifts as I pull the info up from my storage units. But in the meantime:
Spawning is affected more than just photo-periods, or climatal temperature shifts. Yes, these two play their roles, but these roles are a part of a greater picture that we only recently become more aware of. There are more to the spawning trigger than meets-the-eyes. I'm still trying to study more on the subject since I'm extremely interesting in pushing the envelop for optimal genetic growth potential for fishes and plants, creating a diversify aquatic-terra agricultural practices without destroy the ecosystems (a dream in the making).
Mar 4, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
Would it be fair to say these theories are in their infancy and not yet widely known or universally accepted?
There is a lake near me where the largest average creels for bass in 2015 will probably occur in the next 2-3 weeks because they have pretty much every year whether we get 40s or 80s in mid March. But when they bed has varied much more widely. I think the photo period (hours of daylight) is what triggers this because I don't think they have calendars.They start packing it on whether it is cold or hot but don't start the spawn until the water warms up.
Mar 4, 2015
B. Waldman
Thanks, Leo. These are sufficient for now. I was able to track down a few others to read based off your links to get an idea of what you are talking about.
So are you saying these forces have overall "spawning (reproductive cycle) affects," or are you more targeting them as "spawning (cycle) triggers?" After reading more, my first impression is that localized conditions would still continue to be the dominant "force/trigger" in any given year (in determining bluegill spawning), but variations of/over time might play out more according to these global forces.
Mar 4, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Andy, like all other universal theories which became logical and widely accepted facts in practices, based on hundred and thousand years old assumptions, these actually have logic background scientific basis. I was quite pessimistic at first, but allowed logical digging of scientific studies to reinforce the sounded arguments.
B.W., yes, these forces do have an overall influences on spawning and maturing cycles, not only in fishes, but also in plants. Aquatic creatures, those who dwell near the surfaces, under photo-period influences near photo-dependent plants, exhibit similar triggers for maturation to spawning/reproduction.
Localized regional conditions do contribute to the maturation and reproduction/spawning cycles. But what truly forces the fishes to react to an early/late maturation/spawning cycles? It's now no longer the regional conditional influences. It goes up even higher.
B.W., great to have a scientific mind to discuss with. To the rest, sorry if we went a bit overboard.
Mar 4, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
Leo, I am pretty aware of the scientific method, I was raised by a veterinary pathologist (avian diseases specialist) and a PhD research microbiologist working for CDC, so I heard all sorts of competingzoological theories at the dinner table. I started down the science path myself originally majoring in chemistry and even working as a lab tech for a while (real exciting stuff; certifying nutrition labels on livestock feed). Anyway, I have a lot of exposure to scientific minds socially, academically and professionally.
I meant no disrespect in questioning where this theory stands in the scientific community. Some theories, like gravity, are widely accepted and you won't be taken seriously by most if you discuss alternatives. This theory doesn't seem to be as well known or accepted.
I do have some skepticism about it, mostly due to the dependency on animals sensing changes in climate. They have shown remarkable abilities at seeming to predict weather and seismic events that will occur in the near future, but most of what I have read on sensing climate has been negative or inconclusive. The other fly in that ointment is that I (and most of the scientific community) believe that the climate is currently being affected by forces other than nature.
I still think it has been pretty well documented that activity will start at about the same date in the same locations from year to year but spawning will vary more widely and seems to be largely driven by temperature. It sounds like what you are looking into is a possibly explanation for minor variances within that than something completely different.
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
I've trimmed out the esoteric elements, since they're not for everyone.
But that's how it goes. I just thank you all for your drive and input.
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
The late Dr. Willis, and his thoughts on photo period and spawning. Scroll down for the article on springtime and spawning.
http://www.pondboss.com/free_articles.asp?c=5&p=3
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
Thanks for the link, Tony. The second to last paragraph pretty much sums up what I have come to believe through personal experience and reading articles like his. Daylight hours seem to get them in the mood and temperature seems to affect when they actually do the deed...
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
The thing to take away from this conversation is that BOTH photoperiod and temps influence spawning behaviors....one without the other will not work.
here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2...
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
we are (hopefully) pretty much assured of the sunrise and sunset times and therefore the photo period. The temperature is the independent variable in this equation. the tropics where neither changes much is interesting though. I think that is where the climate may play in more. Rainy seasons and what not.
but in cool years don't they start spawning at some point even if the temp doesn't make it to the optimal range?
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
I'm not so sure. If the correct water temps were not important, I would expect to see year round spawning in my ponds, even when the water dropped into the forties. But it doesn't happen.
If there is both a spring as well as a fall equinox, then it would seem to reason that there would also be two different time periods wherein the photoperiod approached optimum for spawning....but I don't see that happening. I think the difference is the declining water temps during the fall.
Mar 5, 2015
B. Waldman
Good comments and discussion, all. Like most of you, I still finger photoperiod and water temperature manipulation as the key triggers to spawning. The literature is replete with studies of off-season spawning and rearing of fish for a variety of reasons, and in nearly all cases, controlling photoperiod and temperature regimes are largely the key to accomplishing this. Outside that, the use of hormone injections (human chorionic gonadotropin - "hCG") is the only other factor frequently mentioned. That said, in keeping with being good "scientists" or researchers, we must always be open and willing to look at and discuss alternative or competing theories and weigh their merits, hence my interest in what Leo is presenting.
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
I also am interested in what Leo presents. His in-depth knowledge and understanding of the intricacies involved in spawning behaviors will be instrumental in helping a layperson such as myself, try and comprehend the interaction between the various factors in play.
Mar 5, 2015
B. Waldman
Yes - water temp trend is a big key from everything I've read. While a certain temp is a good guideline for starting, it is the stable and increasing water temps that seem to really generate the impetus to spawn. This has been documented in several studies. Declination of photoperiod and water temps serve their own purposes, but appear to be non-starters as to actual spawning. Outside of a Florida report or two for crappie and bass (subtropical again), it seems pretty rare to actually find " fall spawning" in most of our freshwater fishes throughout the country, trouts excepted.
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
I am interested in other theories also. Leo's first comments gave me the impression that there was a new theory that mos biologists are on board with. Probably my bad (usually is)...
Tony - in the fall, it is decreasing photo periods that pass the mark. I think that is very different. But it leads to a hypothesis on my part. I would guess that if the temperature doesn't get warm enough, the beginning of the decline after the peak photo period would likely trigger the spawn if the physical limits of having started the cycle haven't already forced their fins.
Mar 5, 2015