Second HBG 6/17/2012

Comment

Comment by Walt Foreman on June 20, 2012 at 9:59am

The very worst pond I'm managing at the moment had HBG in it when I began managing it three years ago.  I stocked 500 3-4" coppernose in October 2010, hoping that the coppernose would edge out the HBG and the latter would gradually disappear.  I do see fewer HBG now - but the problem is, most of the bluegill I catch any given day (I don't fish it often because it's depressing to do so) are not CNBG, but bluegill that I'm pretty certain are the genetically inferior offspring of the HBG.  They look like regular northern-strain bluegill; but they're invariably in awful body condition, even though up until a month ago I was feeding three times daily on that pond, with the best fish food on the market (Silver Cup).  There's a four-acre pond a couple hundred yards up the hill from this pond, but that pond is my very best pond right now and I know the genetics are exceptional in it, so it's highly unlikely that these bluegill I'm catching are from upstream.  I feel pretty certain they're F3 or F4 offspring of the HBG (which were originally stocked in 2008) that have predominantly bluegill characteristics, but also have the inferior genetics that are the main argument against stocking HBG.  There were a good number of them already in the pond when I stocked the coppernose; there are still far more of them than there are coppernose.  The pond is overpopulated, but I manage other ponds in which the bluegill are overpopulated and are still growing reasonably well, and display good body condition; the pond doesn't have shad or tilapia or golden shiners.  

So, in sum, you can make it work, although if you infrequently catch regular bluegill at the moment I would stock more, and aggressively take out all the HBG and GSF you can.  It may seem drastic, but you'd be miles ahead if you rotenoned and started from scratch.  If I remember correctly, this pond is under an acre anyway?  It would be very inexpensive to both rotenone and re-stock a smaller pond.  Within a year you'd be catching bluegill as big or bigger than any you've ever caught out of the pond, and within two years you'd have better fishing than you might have five years from now if you continue trying to salvage the pond in its present state.  

How big is the pond?  I know you have a 1/4 acre pond; is this that same pond?  If so, that makes it exponentially more difficult to salvage in its present condition.  If you started over, you could make it a male-bluegill-only pond, stock nothing but 50 or so male bluegill with good genetics, and within two years they'd average a pound or more apiece; you could be catching two-pounders four years from now.  The three-pound northern-strain bluegill that Bruce posted photos of a few months ago came from a male-only pond, one that's well under an acre.  

Comment by Zach Pierce on June 20, 2012 at 8:30am

Do you not think the BG will take over the pond?  Is it pretty hard to have both HBG and BG in a pond with success.  Or is it mainly that I did not get a good crop of HBG to begin with.

Like I said maybe these are spawn from the ones I stocked, who knows.

Comment by Walt Foreman on June 19, 2012 at 10:05pm

That's cool that you've at least caught some pure bluegill, and they're growing.  I would recommend getting as many of the GSF and mostly-GSF - in other words, any sunfish that aren't pure-strain bluegill - out of the pond as you can, to give the bluegill a better chance to establish.

Comment by Zach Pierce on June 19, 2012 at 9:36pm

I have caught a few of them and they were real nice. The problem is I do not know if they were the ones I got from dunns or the ones I moved from another pond. The we're 6-8 inches when I stocked the wild ones but did not get a length or weight that day as I was just filling my feeder and fished for a quick bit before needing to go. All I can say is they were much thicker than when stocked and a few had the start of the helmet head. Just wish I could have got some picks.

Comment by Walt Foreman on June 19, 2012 at 2:37pm

Just posted on your other photo...How many pure-strain bluegill, between the CNBG and the wild males, do you estimate you have in the pond?  If the fish in the picture are the HBG that you were sold, you probably didn't get pure-strain CNBG.  The hatcheries in Arkansas have a reputation for selling CNBG that really aren't CNBG.  Some may be partly, but some are just regular northern-strain bluegill.  I just started working with a 1.5 acre pond that the owner bought his fish for from a fish truck, and they told him the bluegill were CNBG - and they're no more CNBG than if he had driven to a local creek and caught his bluegill from there.  Do you catch any of the regular, non-hybrid, bluegill, whether coppernose or otherwise?  

Comment by Zach Pierce on June 19, 2012 at 2:07pm

Well these came from Dunn's as I have posted before, not sure if they worked with GG or not but could have. I still think they are some sort of HBG and not GSF. They may have a large % of the GSF gene but I do not think 100%. With that being said I probably did not get what I should have or paid for.

Now, on another note, I have some wild Male BG that I stocked along with some CNBG that I got from Dunn's as well, these were added later as since they sold me HBG with LMB we thought they would not have enough to eat. I think maybe I should have just stock with the HBG and maybe found a better source to add more but that is not the case. Also many GSF that were there before I stocked any fish. So I am sure I am going to have all sorts of cross breeding since the pond is so small and I really will not be able to tell what I have until they start to grow.

I may get a nice cross of the large BG with GSF naturally and get some good quality wild HBG if that is possible.

Any thoughts?

Comment by Tony Livingston on June 19, 2012 at 10:08am

By any chance......were these fish Georgia Giants?

Comment by Walt Foreman on June 19, 2012 at 10:05am

That's part of why I made my initial comment - I was afraid you might have purchased these as HBG.  If so, you got had.

Comment by Zach Pierce on June 19, 2012 at 9:32am

These could be far removed as I did get them from a source that may or may not be the best to do so. Which will make me angry in one respect as I will not get the results I would like from a true hybrid. But on another note if they are FX 2, 3, etc. they prove that a decent size can come from one and that can be good as far as removing them to eat. I guess we will just have to see how they work out. I still think these both are HBG and not pure GSF as I did catch a nice GSF but failed to take a picture of it. I wish I would have so we could see the difference.

I think the fish look long do to the way I took the picture with my phone, but they also have not eaten as much food I would think, this one was a bit larger than the other, and was spitting up food when I caught it. I guess he figured he wanted the night crawler more than the pellets.

Comment by Walt Foreman on June 19, 2012 at 4:45am

We need an ancestry.com for sunfish.  Although it would probably give the sunfish identity crises.

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