bluegill-oct-12

Comment

Comment by David, aka, "McScruff" on October 15, 2013 at 1:41pm

If were talking about Spoiled Pond, establishing terms of the agreement is always an option. And a good one.
Perhaps you can persuade the owner to come around. I sincerely hope so.
Thus might all be just a bump in the road, leading to better things. I do think Luck
is where you make it. Let us know how you do

Comment by Walt Foreman on October 15, 2013 at 1:07pm

David, the owner of the other ponds I foot the bill for actually does take half of everything I make from guiding on his ponds.  I'm at the point with this particular pond where some re-negotiation is going to have to take place for me to continue with it.

Comment by David, aka, "McScruff" on October 15, 2013 at 11:23am

Exactly, you knew the guy previously and he was unsavory then.
Signs work only insofar as people respect them, OR, the muscle behind them. In this case, neither can be depended on. Posting them now would only see them ignored, or removed, I'm certain.

But Ken makes a reasonable suggestion for the other ponds you "manage," providing the owner will go there with you. If he will, its probably past time to bring him in on a professional level anyway.

The essential problem for you is, you have no ownership of the waters you steward. Personally, I feel you've done a great sales job to get as far as you have. But compounding your problems of ownership, (or lack thereof), is the fact that you use them to make a profit. Both situations can come to bite you, vis a vis:

1. The rug gets pulled after all your efforts, as you've seen. People are unreliable, go back on their word, etc. Some people just cannot help themselves.

2. Somebody eventually wants a cut....or to cut you out and profit directly from your labor to date.
This usually happens once notable success is achieved - which takes you back to #1.

A partnership agreement like is needed here is pretty straightforward. Remuneration, indemnity, liability, legal provisions, delineation of responsibility and default provisions...these come to mind as inclusions. Other things, too, common to all contracts. You can draw it up on a cocktail napkin, but any decent attorney should be able to craft a simple partnership agreement for a nominal fee.

Comment by Walt Foreman on October 15, 2013 at 8:59am

Ken, I was never given the authority to make rules on this particular pond - part of the problem, as I never would have allowed the "Spoiler," as David terms him, to fish in the first place.

Comment by Slip Sinker on October 15, 2013 at 7:15am

post fishing restrictions Catch and Release Only would be your first move in this situation. Make them know they are breaking the rules.

Comment by Walt Foreman on October 15, 2013 at 6:55am

I'm not offended at all, David - everything you say makes perfect sense.  I began putting my money into this pond and the others I have picked up the bill for, four years ago in the hopes of eventually creating a successful guide business that would also bring me new clients for my pond management business; I think these ponds probably have brought me some new clients via photos of fish that have come from them; and I think the guide business might have gone better if my efforts on this particular pond had not been controverted so much.  As an example, the five other ponds a mile away that I foot the bill for have an owner who doesn't let anyone, long-time friends he's known much longer than me included, fish without getting permission from me: when they ask him, he tells them to call me.

Comment by David, aka, "McScruff" on October 14, 2013 at 8:35am

Sad story.

You actually do have some legal rights, what with all you've put in. There is also loss of income, from a guiding business perspective. It is a battle to convert a verbal agreement like yours into a remunerative one, however. Coming after the fact in a case like this, is always a challenge. You would surely kill ANY good will you might ever have with the owner while doing so, too.

From the owners point of view, he was good enough to let you do these things. I return, he has the option to do as he wishes. He's saying... "it was Foreman's decision to do all that stuff, not mine. He should be grateful I let him in, at all." Etc., etc. etc.

Either way, press the point in court and he'd as likely kill the pond as continue with you.

Your initial thoughts were to abandon the whole thing and that sounds reasonable now that we know the whole deal. I don't know what loyalties he has to Mr. Spoiler, but it appears it's gonna be the deal breaker. So show up one Saturday and take your feeders, pull up your dock and send BOTH guys a bill for the stock and forage you added. They'll never pay, but you are probably done with him either way.

Reluctantly, I also want to add that in the future you may wish to consider having a contractual partnership with pond owners. I say, "reluctantly," because legal advice should be given that way - if at all. However, since this is your business, or you are trying to make it a business, it behooves you to take it to that level. Some people will be turned off by a contract, and that's fine. For those people, keep walking and send a thank you note.

YOU don't deal with other professionals on just a nod and a smile; there is no compelling reason to operate that way yourself. I hope you wont be offended by my comments here.

Comment by Walt Foreman on October 13, 2013 at 9:30pm

He has permission to fish anytime from the owner, and is not related to the owner.  He smooth-talked the owner with a story about how he's a recovering alcoholic and needed a place to take his kid fishing; I pointed out to the owner that there are several public lakes within thirty miles of us, including three within ten; I mentioned to the owner that it's not necessary for a kid to have access to world-class bluegill fishing, that I certainly didn't when I was a kid.  But the guy in question has done some work for the owner to ingratiate himself, helped the owner with some work on his patio.  The owner obviously doesn't stop to consider that this guy is basically stealing from me and pretending I don't exist.  He forgets that I built a mini-dock for one of the two feeders on his two ponds, and provided both feeders, and provide the food, and stocked the lower pond with bass and bluegill and have stocked forage (grass shrimp, snails, etc.) into the upper pond, etc.  I have no legal rights since I don't own the pond.  

The size of the bluegill was steadily increasing from year to year until last summer when the owner was out of town and this guy put his boat on the pond.  A month before that, I caught eight bluegill in one afternoon that would have gone between sixteen and twenty ounces each, and I thought the pond was on the verge of greatness; since the owner's trip and the other guy's boat appearing on the pond while he was gone, most of the fish have been under ten ounces.  Yesterday they averaged about four ounces less than that.

Comment by David, aka, "McScruff" on October 13, 2013 at 8:28pm

I see - this one guy is the spoiler. Hes a "one timer" - let him come once and he thinks he has Automatic Rights.

If hes also a sneaker, well, he's a serious problem. About all you can do is serve him with legal restraint. I doubt any talking or negotiating will work.

Is he related to the pond owner?

Comment by Walt Foreman on October 13, 2013 at 7:50pm

I offered to split 50-50 with him what I made from each guide trip; he told me just to put it toward the fish food.  

In his defense, the guy who I'm certain took a bunch of big bluegill out of the pond, tells the owner he's not keeping any.  But this is a guy who was kicked out of a twice-monthly get-together of a bunch of guys in my hometown for, among other things, smearing the guts of a dead snapping turtle along the side of the SUV belonging to the wife of one of the guys (who is a peaceful sort but has made clear that this particular man is best served not to come around him).  The owner of the other ponds I put my own money into suspects this same guy of sneaking into his ponds, as do I.  He put his boat on this particular pond when the owner was out of town a year ago - I came out there one day and he had moored his boat right at the landowner's patio - and there was a wire fishbasket in it.  I told the owner about the fishbasket but he was adamant the guy just had it to put snapping turtles in.  (Snapping turtles of course will not fit in a fishbasket.)

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