Here is an interesting question - is "pre-spawn activity" really part of the spawning cycle? IOW, maybe there is a post winter feed that usually immediately precedes spawning but water temps may push them farther apart. I mentioned earlier that the largest creels in a local lake typically some in the next couple of weeks. I don't think that is because the fish are at their largest yet; I think it is because they are feeding actively and nearly all of them are involved, so the average fisherman catches more and in the the tourneys they are culling so the average creel goes up and the likelihood of a creel well above average also goes up.
"is "pre-spawn activity" really part of the spawning cycle? IOW, maybe there is a post winter feed that usually immediately precedes spawning but water temps may push them farther apart."
I'd agree with David and say 'yes'. My reasoning would be that the eggs (oocytes) of most fish actually start developing in late fall and winter (declining water temps/photoperiod?). Hormone levels also start changing, but I think this post winter feeding spree you mention is at least somewhat tied to the fact that the fish has to keep energy reserves up and keep the eggs maturing. The largest, most fittest (healthiest) fish are usually the ones in the best position to dominate the spawn. When viewed in that context, it's not much of a stretch to consider this period part of the "pre-spawn," though maybe not quite in the way some people traditionally define it.
that egg development is the cycle I was referring to in an earlier comment:
But it leads to a hypothesis on my part. I would guess that if the temperature doesn't get warm enough, the beginning of the decline after the peak photo period would likely trigger the spawn if the physical limits of having started the cycle haven't already forced their fins.
At some point those eggs are likely matured to the point the fish will lay them regardless of water temp. That is my educated guess, not something I know.
This is few of the best collective mindset in a hive that I can be blessed with. Andy, no ill-respect taken. No need to apologize. I rather have everyone bluntly shell out info so I can learn things myself. When I stop learning, it means I'm fish foods.
I come from a subtropical country (Vietnam), and I've always been exposed to both agricultural and aquaculture farming practices since I was born. Of course, back then, I couldn't understand the practices and methodology involved. Everyone here is dead on about photo-periods and temperature. The regional's influence for growth, maturation, and reproduction stimuli is based on the regional climatical changes, including hormonal introduction to trick the body to grow/mature at an unnatural level. That can also be said for us humans since we're maturing quite early due to high level of hormones in our foods, water, and air. There's a correlation between optimal growth, maturation, and reproduction with rise and optimal constant temperature. That's a given. Without proper photo-period, there's not enough UV spectrum influence, there won't be enough production food sources along the food chain, and anatomical reproduction of key compounds for survival. Temperature (in cold regions) aid the survival of the youngs, and the gestation period during spawning. Temperature is all about survival of the youngs, while photo-periods is all about the opportunistic and availability of foods sources. This is certainly is true for cold climates.
As B.W. indicated, for tropical and subtropical regions, foods sources remain constantly abundant, and of course, minimal influx (with some odd outlier climate changes) of temperature and photo-period, which still maintain an all year round optimal maturation/spawning cycle window. So, why not spawn year round? Like the rare "fall spawning" for subtropical in bass, same thing can be said in plants, taking plants in nature, and exposing them to the same constant photo-periods and abundant nutrients (controlled indoor, with hydroponic/amended soils). The outcome, growth and maturation occur, but the kicker is, crop yield is missing. We manipulate plant's production to genetic manipulation, as well as inducing hormones, forcing the plants to produce against their natural cycles.
This is why I'm excited, yet, cautiously approaching into this arena. Currently, I'm in contact with a few funded universities, locally and globally, that ventured into this unique arena, especially for the aquaculture exist in nature without man-made manipulation (especially hormones and chemical inducing). I'm guilty to say that I did manipulated my family's goldfish aquarium in the past following this theoretical planetary global seasonal shift using high powered magnets (shhhhh..don't tell them since I killed the fishes through total confusion). Now, I'm testing the theories on plants at a smaller scale..even smaller than the aquarium. It has only been a year. No profound discovery yet. I hope to produce some concrete evident to provide. If not, my kids will carry on my torch later in life as their side project as they are involved in my studies.
Okay..I'm falling in love with all you guys. I can't refrain from switching mindset while sitting in this boring meeting of mine. Excellent questions and key points on the answers.
I'd agree with David and say 'yes'. My reasoning would be that the eggs (oocytes) of most fish actually start developing in late fall and winter (declining water temps/photoperiod?). Hormone levels also start changing, but I think this post winter feeding spree you mention is at least somewhat tied to the fact that the fish has to keep energy reserves up and keep the eggs maturing. The largest, most fittest (healthiest) fish are usually the ones in the best position to dominate the spawn. When viewed in that context, it's not much of a stretch to consider this period part of the "pre-spawn," though maybe not quite in the way some people traditionally define it.
Splendid point! I barely finished my last typing, and saw your posting. Sheesh. Talking about taking the subject and sending up fireworks to highlight it. We're so stuck on studying primary sport/beneficial fishes that we forgot to intensively study the "invasive species" like Asian carps, or the snakeheads. Regardless of the regional photo-period and temperature, they will readapt, mature, and reproduce year round. When the conditions are not favorable, rather than wasting energy in waiting for food sources to come about, the adults eat each other and their youngs, and continually with their maturation and spawning regiment. Photo-period and temperature suddenly went out the door. So, what triggered the spawning? Survival? Adaptation? Why not concentrate in the lower tropical to subtropical regions and dominate? Why move to the colder climates when beneficial returns are minimum in the short (3 years) to medium run (10 years). What do they see and sense that we can't comprehend at the time being?
Andy - Failed spawns are a pretty common thing in nature, and from the studies I've read, fish don't have to lay their eggs even if they are fully mature and ready to. There appear to be some inherent biases or guards against a fish doing something (spawning) that will likely fail for whatever reason, including temperature fluctuations, predatory pressures, etc. In those cases, the eggs stay with the female and get reabsorbed. Using bass as an example, in optimal temp conditions, eggs will develop in roughly 2 days. Once you drop down to about 55 degrees or just under, this extends out to about 10 days. Much colder than that, and complete failure is likely, and most bass won't even attempt to spawn, though there is likely localized genetic disposition to some extent in the matter. If you've ever seen bluegill beds go completely abandoned after a severe cold front moves in, you've experienced this. Can't say for certain how frequently or to what degree this actually happens though.
Leo - great stuff. Do keep us informed of your progress. Would be fun to tell friends "I knew him when" we used to hang out at bigbluegill.com and discuss fishing stuff, some time after you get your Nobel prize when the profound finally happens :)
Why move to the colder climates when beneficial returns are minimum in the short (3 years) to medium run (10 years). What do they see and sense that we can't comprehend at the time being?
Most invasive species didn't proactively invade; they are released by idiots or accident. Sometimes they are purposefully introduced. But I don't think the Asian carp plotted an invasion of the Mississippi watershed.
Indeed Andy. They're no invasive by means of moving from Asia to US. Rather, idiots believe the carps are beneficial somewhere along the way (environmental), like the snakeheads (health and aquacultural), and dump them into the water. When optimal conditions are presented, let the fun begins.
Exactly right Tony. Have you seen Bruce's RE minions? They recovered his iPhones from the lake's depths, and reverse engineered his electronics for their annoying evil schemes to get back at Bruce.
hahahaha Leo!! you!! above all people!! should know-- i dont go running and screaming!! not since i first saw my mother -in -law!! LOL!!! no doubt yo uguys have studied-- read- experimented in this field-- greatly shows your intelligence on the subject matter!! BUT!! then again-- I can;t help thinking-- these guys dont get out much!! LOL!!!
IT'S BEEN A LONG WINTER AND THESE GUYS got nothing better to do than post pics of gills with teeth !!!!! HHHHHHHHHHHA HHHHHHHHA GREAT PIC TONY and ya keep us all laughing during this winter...Thanks
"no doubt you guys have studied-- read- experimented in this field-- greatly shows your intelligence on the subject matter!! BUT!! then again-- I can;t help thinking-- these guys dont get out much!! LOL!!!"
Im with Carl, here.
This is odd, too, because I used to read and study and take in every bit of info I could. Most of you guys have listened to me recount these things over the years. Field studies, fish biology, tomes and tomes of opinion - I've filled volumes with these things. Sometimes I look through that stuff and even Im amazed at how much I've collected.
So, I've been following this with some interest. I like Leos idea about "planetary vibrations," although I don't think we can accurately apply them, since we cant even quantify them.
And I'm sure were spot on with the photoperiod / temperature overlap.
But in the end, we run into what people in the training field call, "knowledge curse, or, "The More You Know, The Less You Can Explain."
So, I'm striving to keep it simple:
Watch the dogwoods (or local equivalent) and the flying insects. When they start up in the Spring, get to fishing. Be ready before then.
YUP SCRUFFY although I love Leo to death and Tony too, but I suspect Leo has been starring at the computer screen a little to long !!!!!!!! I"d love nothing better than to be out fishing right now but we keep getting snow, ice , and such here and I"m a a warm water fisherman .....
Now I don't even understand what all the words are here or theory's for that matter ..I do know one thing ya can't catch bluegills or anything sitting on a couch like I do , actually in my recliner, ya gotta be on the water .....
Me and Carl don't run around screaming cause we are too old and full bodied !!!!!!!! Leo reverse engineering ? You've been watching too many Roswell shows !!!! This is like watching " DRIVING MISS DAISY" cept it's driving Tooty and Carl around !!!!
Okay, how about a direct frontal assault on one of the leading mainstays of fishing lore.....that being the full moon has a direct effect upon fishing/spawning behavior/timing??
There is an article in the March 2015 issue of Outdoor Life, wherein it announces the results of a joint study between the US Geological Survey, and the EPA concerning Muskies. It seems that most fish were taken during full and new moon periods, BUT angling efforts were also higher during those periods....when they broke the statistics down by catch-per-angler-hour, there were no significant lunar effect.
Also, records kept at fish hatcheries show no evidence that Largemouth bass spawn at any particular phase of the moon.
Lunar cycles for catching bass? The Texas share a lunker program found no correlation whatsoever.
I don't consider any of these findings to be absolutes, or conclusive. But it does open the door to the possibility of positive thinking.... I've mentioned before about being convinced that angler confidence in a particular lure probably accounts for at least some of that lure's success....I wonder if the same applies here?
Meaning, if you believe the full moon is responsible for an improved catch rate, could it actually be your belief in the notion encouraging an extra fishing effort on the angler's part, that accounts for the success?? And if one believes a certain tree blooming is an indicator of when to begin fishing, might they also work just a little bit harder, even subconsciously, to try and catch fish?
I think the moon has zero relevance to freshwater fishing. A lot of people shake their heads when I say that, but my personal experience correlates and I have never seen hard data that says the moon affects it.
Indeed. I've been staring at my electronics too long. My choices are quite limited to, "Being single with kids" or "being married with kids". Once the kids are out of the house, it then boils down to, "Being cooked up in the house with some money" or "Time to break the bank accounts for some fun in the sun".
So, while I drool as I watch you gents have your fun, hauling in glorious catches, dreaming and counting the days and blessing until I can actually soak my lines, I do my best to find ways to preserve and enhance future generation's capacity to create bigger, better, and more sustainable population of our beloved fisheries.
Now, enjoy your fishing gents, and ladies. Just watch out for something resembling a bullhead shark of a panfish, dragging you under. When that day comes, just think for a moment, "Leo, what insanity did you cook up?!"
LEO!!! would it be ok ;; little buddy;; if I sent you and your family some tickets - to go to the movies?? just so you guys could get out for a ;little while!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
Hey Leo it's all in fun here , but now ya got me thinking or watching out for bullheads with teeth in my waters .... Picture here if ya will the theme from JAWS opening scene ...
One of my favorite books is called "Finding Fish: locating and catching fish in warm-water lakes," By Cliff Hauptman
He makes almost no mention of the phases of the moon, alignment of planets, Verne's Equal Knocks or any of the seemingly endless astrological harbingers of a good catch we rely on. I cant recall his mentioning even once a solunar table.
His premise is simple:
1. Know what fish want to do at a given time.
2. Know what they want to eat at a given time.
3. Know where they want to be, to fulfill 1. and 2.
4. Go to the location determined in 3, and apply the information from 1. and 2.
You know some people plan there vacations and fishing trips around the full moon so there might be something to it. Unfortunately I don't have that option when I get a chance to go I have to go cause there are not many of those days I get the chance to go. As a general rule I catch fish I may have to change up my tactics somewhat but the fish are there somewhere and there are some that are hungry
Spawning during moon phases: no correlation that was noted for the past 3 decades, on any of the species in freshwater, unless you're talking amphibians.
Feeding during moon phases: since we're unable to fish during night time (before dawn or after dark), we can't test the catch per hour at our local water. But that didn't limit our level of observation, as we toss baits to see the explosiveness of boils at night. There's a higher feeding rate as the full moon peaks. This was targeted at public water bodies (minimal fishery management, except for dumping in more game fishes such as trout and catfish), with water body size 15 acres or more. Those who have ventured utilizing "ninja sessions" to compare peak full moons, to various other moon phases, compared to those who fish during the daytime at the same spots within the same moon phases, they've reported the catching the bigger fishes (4lbs bass and larger) were a big challenge, compared to smaller sized fishes (4lbs bass and smaller).
A group of us did draft proposals to local Department of Fish and Wildlife to allow us in performing studies, by angling at night as well as morning hours. Those proposal were immediately dismissed, unless it was related to fishery management studies (electrofishing only). Our proposals, no matter how scientifically sounded they were, considered as nothing more than "Promotion of illegal activities on State and Federal premises." We did the same studies on private lakes/ponds (12 acres and less), but the managed lakes were lacking so many vital elements to truly make the data conclusive. The fishes would bite regardless of the hours of the day, and whatever one tossed at them. The poor souls were starving.
So, there's a massive correlation of larger fishes took the opportunity to feed well in the shallow and near the surface during peak moon phases, and went deep during the day to avoid aerial predation. Smaller ones took chances to remain in the shallow to feast on any available food source for growth and maturation.
The observation notes also indicated that the time and depth the weight ranges were also affected. At dawn (allowable fishing time between 6AM to 8AM), bass up to 4lbs were caught in the shallow after the preceding frenzy feeding at night. Between 8AM to 9:30AM, only small (up to 4lbs) were feeding. After 9:30AM, spotty catches up to 2lbs until dusk came around (6PM to 8PM allow catch time period). After 8PM, action increases during peak full moon, but any longer on the water, your chance of getting a fine is pretty high.
The argument for some folks who live in California is probably be, "Well, you can fish after dark, if you go camping at the public water (with overnight campsites). Yes, you can. However, the optimal shoreline fishing areas are not accessible by walking there, unless you're willing to risk yourself in breaking your legs, bitten by rattlers, and/or venomous insects.
So, the battle continues to collect as much info we can possibly can, without the help from DNR, DFW, USEPA, on popular abundant game fishes. Endangered species on the other hand, oohhhh..that's a whole different ball of wax.
This was also noted for panfishes, after I dedicated in chasing them, aside from my old mantra of "only chase big games". It's all thanks to my wife and you guys.
just a quick thought!! in the ( old days) back in the 50;s we used a old book to decide all kinds of things-- according to the ( signs) .. the book was-- POOR RICHARDS ALMANACK!! we were taught- how to read; ( the signs) according to the book. planting crops;; as well as fishing !! and i bet-- Jeffery has a book every year of it to!!
This is an interesting subject, because it pits science against anecdotal evidence, which I always find interesting. The science says that spawning around a particular moon phase with common freshwater fishes (bass, bluegill, etc.) doesn't happen. yet, ask most anglers and they'll have a different take.
For example, I am good friends with one of the professional bass touring anglers, and he is always wanting to know when the full moon and new moon cycles are around his tournaments due to the belief that big waves of spawning bass move in during those times assuming water temps are good. Additionally, he's seen the same thing with bluegills in some of the mid-latitude waters he's fished more during summer.
Likewise, my records show that around here, I seem to always find bedding gills during the new moon phase in late May or early June. Even though I know what the science says, what I see seems to contradict it. The difference might be that in the case of observation, every possible scenario isn't documented. In other words, I don't go out year after year trying to see when my gills start bedding and record those dates. Instead, I happen to notice it some years when I'm out on the water, and those times happened to have fallen around key moon phases. What I likely haven't noticed is those times or years when it didn't happen like that - at least that is my current theory.
All that said, here are a few good science pieces on some of these exact same topics we've been discussing so much today:
Many years ago when I was a teenager, my parents had a house on Lake Lanier in GA and it had a 2 boat boat house but we only had one boat. We had power out there and kept an old fridge and B&W TV out there. A friend and I would often take lawn chairs out and fish in the empty bay with a light to get the minnows circling. One night we were really slaying the crappie and I mentioned to my buddy that this sure seemed to disprove the "don't fish the full moon" theory he had espoused a few time. He shook his head and rolled his eyes "Doesn't prove a thing; we're fishing indoors." ... ;^>
I have never utilized solunar tables or moon phases to direct my fishing efforts. I have always been of the opinion that such coincidences are just that. At best, I figure that undiscovered factors are in play that happen to align themselves with readily apparent visual cues. But, I'm willing to listen!
I have never utilized solunar tables or moon phases to direct my fishing efforts. I have always been of the opinion that such coincidences are just that. At best, I figure that undiscovered factors are in play that happen to align themselves with readily apparent visual cues. But, I'm willing to listen!
I saw your name in my local paper (Banner Graphic) a couple or so days ago. I already knew who you were - I think we've even been in contact via email before in regards to the Smallmouth Alliance.
Anyway -Congrats on your 2014 accomplishments and let's go fishing sometime soon! Jay near Greencastle
LOL - Thanks, Jay. One and the same. They kind of screwed up that story - it just hit my mailbox yesterday. I got two state "fish of the year" awards, not two state records :) But they say there is no such thing as bad publicity!
Will definitely have to get together this year, perhaps when the ice finally melts in June :) Been another long, cold winter. Hoping to be ice free in another 2-3 weeks, so I'll be hitting the open water as soon as we get it. Keep in touch and we'll go chasing after something this spring.
I don't get to fish just when the time is right.
I can't wait on Jupiter to juxtapose with Uranus, or for the moon to be in a certain house (or boathouse).
I go when I can. A lot if this is lost on me for that reason.
PS I do tend to agree with the studies that I've read that advocate more bluegill spawning occurs around the full moon. The sheer volume of work devoted to this suggests it's not purely anecdotal.
Oh David, you made me spit my lunch all over my screen. You and Tony..sheesh..jokster-duo..
Scientific studies are always based on observation studies. When there's enough overwhelming evident throughout the nation/world to drown either the scientific theories or partial document results done only by a few groups, the layman's observation will triumph as factual information. This is the age of techno-evolution. That won't be a problem.
I surely agree with you David. I can't wait. If I have a chance to fish, I don't plan anything around any optimal period. I rather spend 10 hours of poor fishing day for the entire month over 1/2 hour of the best single day of fishing day.
David, can you post some links to the studies that claim a connection exists between spawning and the full moon? Would love to read a study that comes from the other side of the fence.
The weird thing about the moon is I have fished with people over the years at different ends of the spectrum. A few people, like my friend in the boathouse story, swear that the fishing is awful and you should avoid fishing the full moon because they never catch anything then (but they never fish then either). Others avoid the new moon. About the only thing I heard about a moon phase that made sense to me was a buddy that liked to do Summer new moon trips for brown trout in Dillon Res in CO. We used shallow diving Rapalas. His theory was that without the moon there were so many stars that from underneath the Rapala made a silhouette but would go out of sight quickly so the trout had to strike quick. It did seem to work. We caught a lot of them. It was weird though; might cast 50 times with nothing, not even a whiff and the next cast felt like you cast into the open door of a passing freight car.
And let's admit that most lore, while often lurid, comes from a time when people had nothing else to do.
- It was quieter
- They were less distracted (do not underestimate the power of sheer focus.)
- They were likely more attuned to animals and Natures rhythms
- They weren't total scientific nimrods.
Were only speaking about a century here, after all.
It's highly probable that my "bugs and blossoms" benchmark, while squarely in the realm of lore, is viable for one reason- it's based in what actually HAPPENS, as experienced over decades or more... and not solely on theory.
I'm a fan of old school, but I also embrace the strides made in modern times. Radium was once prescribed as a cure for arthritis, and inhaling tobacco smoke was thought to help asthma....
Things change, discoveries are made, and perspectives are broadened.
I'll help David, but still, I'm a tad sceptical on the limited research by one or two groups. We need more synchronous data from various regions, within the same timeline.
I'm really loving this thread. I feel like I'm at work. My only concern is let's not burn $1,000,000.00 in resources to solve a $100.00 problem. Theory is great but at the end of the day, what really matters is that what makes the resource sustainable what gets a fish on the hook.
Just a thought or at least a different direction .
Andy is OptiMystic
Here is an interesting question - is "pre-spawn activity" really part of the spawning cycle? IOW, maybe there is a post winter feed that usually immediately precedes spawning but water temps may push them farther apart. I mentioned earlier that the largest creels in a local lake typically some in the next couple of weeks. I don't think that is because the fish are at their largest yet; I think it is because they are feeding actively and nearly all of them are involved, so the average fisherman catches more and in the the tourneys they are culling so the average creel goes up and the likelihood of a creel well above average also goes up.
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Yes.
Mar 5, 2015
B. Waldman
I'd agree with David and say 'yes'. My reasoning would be that the eggs (oocytes) of most fish actually start developing in late fall and winter (declining water temps/photoperiod?). Hormone levels also start changing, but I think this post winter feeding spree you mention is at least somewhat tied to the fact that the fish has to keep energy reserves up and keep the eggs maturing. The largest, most fittest (healthiest) fish are usually the ones in the best position to dominate the spawn. When viewed in that context, it's not much of a stretch to consider this period part of the "pre-spawn," though maybe not quite in the way some people traditionally define it.
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
that egg development is the cycle I was referring to in an earlier comment:
At some point those eggs are likely matured to the point the fish will lay them regardless of water temp. That is my educated guess, not something I know.
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
This is few of the best collective mindset in a hive that I can be blessed with. Andy, no ill-respect taken. No need to apologize. I rather have everyone bluntly shell out info so I can learn things myself. When I stop learning, it means I'm fish foods.
I come from a subtropical country (Vietnam), and I've always been exposed to both agricultural and aquaculture farming practices since I was born. Of course, back then, I couldn't understand the practices and methodology involved. Everyone here is dead on about photo-periods and temperature. The regional's influence for growth, maturation, and reproduction stimuli is based on the regional climatical changes, including hormonal introduction to trick the body to grow/mature at an unnatural level. That can also be said for us humans since we're maturing quite early due to high level of hormones in our foods, water, and air. There's a correlation between optimal growth, maturation, and reproduction with rise and optimal constant temperature. That's a given. Without proper photo-period, there's not enough UV spectrum influence, there won't be enough production food sources along the food chain, and anatomical reproduction of key compounds for survival. Temperature (in cold regions) aid the survival of the youngs, and the gestation period during spawning. Temperature is all about survival of the youngs, while photo-periods is all about the opportunistic and availability of foods sources. This is certainly is true for cold climates.
As B.W. indicated, for tropical and subtropical regions, foods sources remain constantly abundant, and of course, minimal influx (with some odd outlier climate changes) of temperature and photo-period, which still maintain an all year round optimal maturation/spawning cycle window. So, why not spawn year round? Like the rare "fall spawning" for subtropical in bass, same thing can be said in plants, taking plants in nature, and exposing them to the same constant photo-periods and abundant nutrients (controlled indoor, with hydroponic/amended soils). The outcome, growth and maturation occur, but the kicker is, crop yield is missing. We manipulate plant's production to genetic manipulation, as well as inducing hormones, forcing the plants to produce against their natural cycles.
This is why I'm excited, yet, cautiously approaching into this arena. Currently, I'm in contact with a few funded universities, locally and globally, that ventured into this unique arena, especially for the aquaculture exist in nature without man-made manipulation (especially hormones and chemical inducing). I'm guilty to say that I did manipulated my family's goldfish aquarium in the past following this theoretical planetary global seasonal shift using high powered magnets (shhhhh..don't tell them since I killed the fishes through total confusion). Now, I'm testing the theories on plants at a smaller scale..even smaller than the aquarium. It has only been a year. No profound discovery yet. I hope to produce some concrete evident to provide. If not, my kids will carry on my torch later in life as their side project as they are involved in my studies.
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
Leo, you're not a true pondmeister until you've killed a few hundred fish!
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
Fish do not have to lay their eggs....they can reabsorb them if necessary, but unsure if that still holds true past a certain gamete maturity.
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Okay..I'm falling in love with all you guys. I can't refrain from switching mindset while sitting in this boring meeting of mine. Excellent questions and key points on the answers.
Splendid point! I barely finished my last typing, and saw your posting. Sheesh. Talking about taking the subject and sending up fireworks to highlight it. We're so stuck on studying primary sport/beneficial fishes that we forgot to intensively study the "invasive species" like Asian carps, or the snakeheads. Regardless of the regional photo-period and temperature, they will readapt, mature, and reproduce year round. When the conditions are not favorable, rather than wasting energy in waiting for food sources to come about, the adults eat each other and their youngs, and continually with their maturation and spawning regiment. Photo-period and temperature suddenly went out the door. So, what triggered the spawning? Survival? Adaptation? Why not concentrate in the lower tropical to subtropical regions and dominate? Why move to the colder climates when beneficial returns are minimum in the short (3 years) to medium run (10 years). What do they see and sense that we can't comprehend at the time being?
Mar 5, 2015
B. Waldman
Andy - Failed spawns are a pretty common thing in nature, and from the studies I've read, fish don't have to lay their eggs even if they are fully mature and ready to. There appear to be some inherent biases or guards against a fish doing something (spawning) that will likely fail for whatever reason, including temperature fluctuations, predatory pressures, etc. In those cases, the eggs stay with the female and get reabsorbed. Using bass as an example, in optimal temp conditions, eggs will develop in roughly 2 days. Once you drop down to about 55 degrees or just under, this extends out to about 10 days. Much colder than that, and complete failure is likely, and most bass won't even attempt to spawn, though there is likely localized genetic disposition to some extent in the matter. If you've ever seen bluegill beds go completely abandoned after a severe cold front moves in, you've experienced this. Can't say for certain how frequently or to what degree this actually happens though.
Leo - great stuff. Do keep us informed of your progress. Would be fun to tell friends "I knew him when" we used to hang out at bigbluegill.com and discuss fishing stuff, some time after you get your Nobel prize when the profound finally happens :)
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
Most invasive species didn't proactively invade; they are released by idiots or accident. Sometimes they are purposefully introduced. But I don't think the Asian carp plotted an invasion of the Mississippi watershed.
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Indeed Andy. They're no invasive by means of moving from Asia to US. Rather, idiots believe the carps are beneficial somewhere along the way (environmental), like the snakeheads (health and aquacultural), and dump them into the water. When optimal conditions are presented, let the fun begins.
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
I don't know about Asian carp, but I have it on good authority that redear sunfish will absolutely plot an angler's demise.....
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
Man...good discussion!!
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Exactly right Tony. Have you seen Bruce's RE minions? They recovered his iPhones from the lake's depths, and reverse engineered his electronics for their annoying evil schemes to get back at Bruce.
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
I think most the group is just sitting back and going - "Fish plotting invasions? Oocytes? Magnets? Man, those guys need to go fishing..." ;^>
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Puahahahahahaah! Tooty and Carl probably did scream out what you've just indicated.
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
You mean.....THIS ONE!! Look away, do not make direct eye contact!!!
The very funny thread is here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1...
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
Gillnado!
Mar 5, 2015
carl hendrix
hahahaha Leo!! you!! above all people!! should know-- i dont go running and screaming!! not since i first saw my mother -in -law!! LOL!!! no doubt yo uguys have studied-- read- experimented in this field-- greatly shows your intelligence on the subject matter!! BUT!! then again-- I can;t help thinking-- these guys dont get out much!! LOL!!!
Mar 5, 2015
DAVID L EITUTIS
HHHHHHHHHHA HHHHHHHHHHHA CARL GOOD ONE !!!!
Mar 5, 2015
DAVID L EITUTIS
IT'S BEEN A LONG WINTER AND THESE GUYS got nothing better to do than post pics of gills with teeth !!!!! HHHHHHHHHHHA HHHHHHHHA GREAT PIC TONY and ya keep us all laughing during this winter...Thanks
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Im with Carl, here.
This is odd, too, because I used to read and study and take in every bit of info I could. Most of you guys have listened to me recount these things over the years. Field studies, fish biology, tomes and tomes of opinion - I've filled volumes with these things. Sometimes I look through that stuff and even Im amazed at how much I've collected.
So, I've been following this with some interest. I like Leos idea about "planetary vibrations," although I don't think we can accurately apply them, since we cant even quantify them.
And I'm sure were spot on with the photoperiod / temperature overlap.
But in the end, we run into what people in the training field call, "knowledge curse, or, "The More You Know, The Less You Can Explain."
So, I'm striving to keep it simple:
Watch the dogwoods (or local equivalent) and the flying insects. When they start up in the Spring, get to fishing. Be ready before then.
If you miss a day or two, it'll be alright.
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
David's "bloom 'n bugs" theory ... ;^>
I definitely need to get out more. I am not sure if my weekend escape to Savannah made it better or worse in the long run.
Mar 5, 2015
DAVID L EITUTIS
YUP SCRUFFY although I love Leo to death and Tony too, but I suspect Leo has been starring at the computer screen a little to long !!!!!!!! I"d love nothing better than to be out fishing right now but we keep getting snow, ice , and such here and I"m a a warm water fisherman .....
Now I don't even understand what all the words are here or theory's for that matter ..I do know one thing ya can't catch bluegills or anything sitting on a couch like I do , actually in my recliner, ya gotta be on the water .....
Me and Carl don't run around screaming cause we are too old and full bodied !!!!!!!!
Leo reverse engineering ? You've been watching too many Roswell shows !!!!
This is like watching " DRIVING MISS DAISY" cept it's driving Tooty and Carl around !!!!
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
Okay, how about a direct frontal assault on one of the leading mainstays of fishing lore.....that being the full moon has a direct effect upon fishing/spawning behavior/timing??
There is an article in the March 2015 issue of Outdoor Life, wherein it announces the results of a joint study between the US Geological Survey, and the EPA concerning Muskies. It seems that most fish were taken during full and new moon periods, BUT angling efforts were also higher during those periods....when they broke the statistics down by catch-per-angler-hour, there were no significant lunar effect.
Also, records kept at fish hatcheries show no evidence that Largemouth bass spawn at any particular phase of the moon.
Lunar cycles for catching bass? The Texas share a lunker program found no correlation whatsoever.
I don't consider any of these findings to be absolutes, or conclusive. But it does open the door to the possibility of positive thinking.... I've mentioned before about being convinced that angler confidence in a particular lure probably accounts for at least some of that lure's success....I wonder if the same applies here?
Meaning, if you believe the full moon is responsible for an improved catch rate, could it actually be your belief in the notion encouraging an extra fishing effort on the angler's part, that accounts for the success?? And if one believes a certain tree blooming is an indicator of when to begin fishing, might they also work just a little bit harder, even subconsciously, to try and catch fish?
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
I think the moon has zero relevance to freshwater fishing. A lot of people shake their heads when I say that, but my personal experience correlates and I have never seen hard data that says the moon affects it.
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Indeed. I've been staring at my electronics too long. My choices are quite limited to, "Being single with kids" or "being married with kids". Once the kids are out of the house, it then boils down to, "Being cooked up in the house with some money" or "Time to break the bank accounts for some fun in the sun".
So, while I drool as I watch you gents have your fun, hauling in glorious catches, dreaming and counting the days and blessing until I can actually soak my lines, I do my best to find ways to preserve and enhance future generation's capacity to create bigger, better, and more sustainable population of our beloved fisheries.
Now, enjoy your fishing gents, and ladies. Just watch out for something resembling a bullhead shark of a panfish, dragging you under. When that day comes, just think for a moment, "Leo, what insanity did you cook up?!"
Mar 5, 2015
carl hendrix
LEO!!! would it be ok ;; little buddy;; if I sent you and your family some tickets - to go to the movies?? just so you guys could get out for a ;little while!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
Mar 5, 2015
DAVID L EITUTIS
Hey Leo it's all in fun here , but now ya got me thinking or watching out for bullheads with teeth in my waters .... Picture here if ya will the theme from JAWS opening scene ...
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
One of my favorite books is called "Finding Fish: locating and catching fish in warm-water lakes," By Cliff Hauptman
He makes almost no mention of the phases of the moon, alignment of planets, Verne's Equal Knocks or any of the seemingly endless astrological harbingers of a good catch we rely on. I cant recall his mentioning even once a solunar table.
His premise is simple:
1. Know what fish want to do at a given time.
2. Know what they want to eat at a given time.
3. Know where they want to be, to fulfill 1. and 2.
4. Go to the location determined in 3, and apply the information from 1. and 2.
Mar 5, 2015
dick tabbert
You know some people plan there vacations and fishing trips around the full moon so there might be something to it. Unfortunately I don't have that option when I get a chance to go I have to go cause there are not many of those days I get the chance to go. As a general rule I catch fish I may have to change up my tactics somewhat but the fish are there somewhere and there are some that are hungry
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Frontal assault noted.
Spawning during moon phases: no correlation that was noted for the past 3 decades, on any of the species in freshwater, unless you're talking amphibians.
Feeding during moon phases: since we're unable to fish during night time (before dawn or after dark), we can't test the catch per hour at our local water. But that didn't limit our level of observation, as we toss baits to see the explosiveness of boils at night. There's a higher feeding rate as the full moon peaks. This was targeted at public water bodies (minimal fishery management, except for dumping in more game fishes such as trout and catfish), with water body size 15 acres or more. Those who have ventured utilizing "ninja sessions" to compare peak full moons, to various other moon phases, compared to those who fish during the daytime at the same spots within the same moon phases, they've reported the catching the bigger fishes (4lbs bass and larger) were a big challenge, compared to smaller sized fishes (4lbs bass and smaller).
A group of us did draft proposals to local Department of Fish and Wildlife to allow us in performing studies, by angling at night as well as morning hours. Those proposal were immediately dismissed, unless it was related to fishery management studies (electrofishing only). Our proposals, no matter how scientifically sounded they were, considered as nothing more than "Promotion of illegal activities on State and Federal premises." We did the same studies on private lakes/ponds (12 acres and less), but the managed lakes were lacking so many vital elements to truly make the data conclusive. The fishes would bite regardless of the hours of the day, and whatever one tossed at them. The poor souls were starving.
So, there's a massive correlation of larger fishes took the opportunity to feed well in the shallow and near the surface during peak moon phases, and went deep during the day to avoid aerial predation. Smaller ones took chances to remain in the shallow to feast on any available food source for growth and maturation.
The observation notes also indicated that the time and depth the weight ranges were also affected. At dawn (allowable fishing time between 6AM to 8AM), bass up to 4lbs were caught in the shallow after the preceding frenzy feeding at night. Between 8AM to 9:30AM, only small (up to 4lbs) were feeding. After 9:30AM, spotty catches up to 2lbs until dusk came around (6PM to 8PM allow catch time period). After 8PM, action increases during peak full moon, but any longer on the water, your chance of getting a fine is pretty high.
The argument for some folks who live in California is probably be, "Well, you can fish after dark, if you go camping at the public water (with overnight campsites). Yes, you can. However, the optimal shoreline fishing areas are not accessible by walking there, unless you're willing to risk yourself in breaking your legs, bitten by rattlers, and/or venomous insects.
So, the battle continues to collect as much info we can possibly can, without the help from DNR, DFW, USEPA, on popular abundant game fishes. Endangered species on the other hand, oohhhh..that's a whole different ball of wax.
This was also noted for panfishes, after I dedicated in chasing them, aside from my old mantra of "only chase big games". It's all thanks to my wife and you guys.
Mar 5, 2015
carl hendrix
just a quick thought!! in the ( old days) back in the 50;s we used a old book to decide all kinds of things-- according to the ( signs) .. the book was-- POOR RICHARDS ALMANACK!! we were taught- how to read; ( the signs) according to the book. planting crops;; as well as fishing !! and i bet-- Jeffery has a book every year of it to!!
Mar 5, 2015
B. Waldman
This is an interesting subject, because it pits science against anecdotal evidence, which I always find interesting. The science says that spawning around a particular moon phase with common freshwater fishes (bass, bluegill, etc.) doesn't happen. yet, ask most anglers and they'll have a different take.
For example, I am good friends with one of the professional bass touring anglers, and he is always wanting to know when the full moon and new moon cycles are around his tournaments due to the belief that big waves of spawning bass move in during those times assuming water temps are good. Additionally, he's seen the same thing with bluegills in some of the mid-latitude waters he's fished more during summer.
Likewise, my records show that around here, I seem to always find bedding gills during the new moon phase in late May or early June. Even though I know what the science says, what I see seems to contradict it. The difference might be that in the case of observation, every possible scenario isn't documented. In other words, I don't go out year after year trying to see when my gills start bedding and record those dates. Instead, I happen to notice it some years when I'm out on the water, and those times happened to have fallen around key moon phases. What I likely haven't noticed is those times or years when it didn't happen like that - at least that is my current theory.
All that said, here are a few good science pieces on some of these exact same topics we've been discussing so much today:
Water temps & spawning
Moon phases I
Skipped spawns
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
Many years ago when I was a teenager, my parents had a house on Lake Lanier in GA and it had a 2 boat boat house but we only had one boat. We had power out there and kept an old fridge and B&W TV out there. A friend and I would often take lawn chairs out and fish in the empty bay with a light to get the minnows circling. One night we were really slaying the crappie and I mentioned to my buddy that this sure seemed to disprove the "don't fish the full moon" theory he had espoused a few time. He shook his head and rolled his eyes "Doesn't prove a thing; we're fishing indoors." ... ;^>
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
I have never utilized solunar tables or moon phases to direct my fishing efforts. I have always been of the opinion that such coincidences are just that. At best, I figure that undiscovered factors are in play that happen to align themselves with readily apparent visual cues. But, I'm willing to listen!
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
I have never utilized solunar tables or moon phases to direct my fishing efforts. I have always been of the opinion that such coincidences are just that. At best, I figure that undiscovered factors are in play that happen to align themselves with readily apparent visual cues. But, I'm willing to listen!
Mar 5, 2015
Jay Fogle
B Waldman - Is a fisherman's fisherman!
I saw your name in my local paper (Banner Graphic) a couple or so days ago. I already knew who you were - I think we've even been in contact via email before in regards to the Smallmouth Alliance.
Anyway -Congrats on your 2014 accomplishments and let's go fishing sometime soon! Jay near Greencastle
Mar 5, 2015
B. Waldman
LOL - Thanks, Jay. One and the same. They kind of screwed up that story - it just hit my mailbox yesterday. I got two state "fish of the year" awards, not two state records :) But they say there is no such thing as bad publicity!
Will definitely have to get together this year, perhaps when the ice finally melts in June :) Been another long, cold winter. Hoping to be ice free in another 2-3 weeks, so I'll be hitting the open water as soon as we get it. Keep in touch and we'll go chasing after something this spring.
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
I can't wait on Jupiter to juxtapose with Uranus, or for the moon to be in a certain house (or boathouse).
I go when I can. A lot if this is lost on me for that reason.
PS I do tend to agree with the studies that I've read that advocate more bluegill spawning occurs around the full moon. The sheer volume of work devoted to this suggests it's not purely anecdotal.
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
Oh David, you made me spit my lunch all over my screen. You and Tony..sheesh..jokster-duo..
Scientific studies are always based on observation studies. When there's enough overwhelming evident throughout the nation/world to drown either the scientific theories or partial document results done only by a few groups, the layman's observation will triumph as factual information. This is the age of techno-evolution. That won't be a problem.
I surely agree with you David. I can't wait. If I have a chance to fish, I don't plan anything around any optimal period. I rather spend 10 hours of poor fishing day for the entire month over 1/2 hour of the best single day of fishing day.
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
David, can you post some links to the studies that claim a connection exists between spawning and the full moon? Would love to read a study that comes from the other side of the fence.
Mar 5, 2015
Andy is OptiMystic
The weird thing about the moon is I have fished with people over the years at different ends of the spectrum. A few people, like my friend in the boathouse story, swear that the fishing is awful and you should avoid fishing the full moon because they never catch anything then (but they never fish then either). Others avoid the new moon. About the only thing I heard about a moon phase that made sense to me was a buddy that liked to do Summer new moon trips for brown trout in Dillon Res in CO. We used shallow diving Rapalas. His theory was that without the moon there were so many stars that from underneath the Rapala made a silhouette but would go out of sight quickly so the trout had to strike quick. It did seem to work. We caught a lot of them. It was weird though; might cast 50 times with nothing, not even a whiff and the next cast felt like you cast into the open door of a passing freight car.
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
- It was quieter
- They were less distracted (do not underestimate the power of sheer focus.)
- They were likely more attuned to animals and Natures rhythms
- They weren't total scientific nimrods.
Were only speaking about a century here, after all.
It's highly probable that my "bugs and blossoms" benchmark, while squarely in the realm of lore, is viable for one reason- it's based in what actually HAPPENS, as experienced over decades or more... and not solely on theory.
Somewhere al these lines intersect, you k
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Got it from books.
But I'm guessing they're there.
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Not a study but at least empirical.
Mar 5, 2015
David, aka, "McScruff"
Who better than pond boss
Mar 5, 2015
Tony Livingston
I'm a fan of old school, but I also embrace the strides made in modern times. Radium was once prescribed as a cure for arthritis, and inhaling tobacco smoke was thought to help asthma....
Things change, discoveries are made, and perspectives are broadened.
Mar 5, 2015
Leo Nguyen
I'll help David, but still, I'm a tad sceptical on the limited research by one or two groups. We need more synchronous data from various regions, within the same timeline.
http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2010/jun/06/bream-fishing-moon-2...
Salt to freshwater migration during peak full moon for salmon (slight correlation)
Australia (brackish water) "freshwater" studies
Mar 5, 2015
Joe Angelucci
I'm really loving this thread. I feel like I'm at work. My only concern is let's not burn $1,000,000.00 in resources to solve a $100.00 problem. Theory is great but at the end of the day, what really matters is that what makes the resource sustainable what gets a fish on the hook.
Just a thought or at least a different direction .
Mar 5, 2015